Session Start: Sun Jun 15 15:37:08 2003
Session Ident: #cakewalkdance
[15:37:08] * Now talking in #cakewalkdance
[15:37:09] * Retrieving #cakewalkdance info...
[15:37:21] * WhiteBandit sets mode: +ntps
[15:37:21] * WhiteBandit sets mode: +k furrydog
[15:37:48] * Joins: OctavianX (~thesim109@coin-as3-22.coin.org)
[15:37:57] * Joins: Togas (Togas@c-66-229-64-236.we.client2.attbi.com)
[15:38:01] [Togas] greetings
[15:38:01] [WhiteBandit] holy on, getting other people in here
[15:38:04] [WhiteBandit] holy?
[15:38:05] [OctavianX] Hello
[15:38:05] [WhiteBandit] haha
[15:38:06] [WhiteBandit] hold
[15:38:07] [OctavianX] lol
[15:38:35] [WhiteBandit] anyways, what is going on?
[15:38:48] [WhiteBandit] Togas - you'll probably need to lead this, i have to leave in about 20 minutes
[15:38:55] [OctavianX] well, GCA has cancelled the in-game peace treaty.
[15:39:01] [Togas] I've been helping a friend move all morning.  Blech.  And come back to find a storm of activity.  Why couldn't this have happened last night when I wasn't so beat up :)
[15:39:03] [OctavianX] Technically, they've declared war.
[15:39:07] * Joins: E_T (E_T@216.53.175.124)
[15:39:14] * WhiteBandit sets mode: +ooo E_T OctavianX Togas
[15:39:14] [OctavianX] 12° Mmmm... Doughnuts... 12°
[15:39:30] [E_T] hello all
[15:39:34] [Togas] damn these wars are always so inconvenient...
[15:39:35] [OctavianX] We don't plan on fighting them at all...
[15:39:45] [Togas] ??
[15:39:51] [OctavianX] GCA's goal is a more binding peace treaty
[15:40:11] [OctavianX] This is a better sumarry...
[15:40:11] [OctavianX] GCA has cancelled the Peace Treaty in the game.
[15:40:11] [OctavianX] GCA has extended a new Peace Treaty in the game.
[15:40:11] [OctavianX] GCA has offered us peace under the following conditions:
[15:40:11] [OctavianX] We remove all offensive units from viewing range of their units.
[15:40:11] [OctavianX] We trade Yun Feng to them or do not connect the iron within that cities radius.
[15:40:14] [OctavianX] We accept the mountains as a permanent border between our two nations.
[15:40:37] [WhiteBandit] if i may ask, is that your only access to iron?
[15:40:38] [Togas] sounds like some tough bargaining
[15:40:42] [OctavianX] We feel that the last two conditions are simply unacceptable.
[15:41:10] [OctavianX] At the moment, yes it is our only iron source, though we've formualated plans for settling a second one.
[15:41:18] [WhiteBandit] ah okay
[15:41:24] [WhiteBandit] do you know the status of GCA's iron deposits?
[15:41:38] [WhiteBandit] (whether they have one already or this is the only one for them?)
[15:41:51] [OctavianX] As I understand it, they do have iron.
[15:41:58] [WhiteBandit] hmm, okay
[15:42:04] [E_T] CFC can see 2 Iron deposits??
[15:42:09] [OctavianX] Yes
[15:42:25] [OctavianX] In rather unconvient locations, though
[15:45:31] [OctavianX] Why so quiet?  Any more thoughts on the situation?
[15:45:52] * WhiteBandit is making lunch in the background!
[15:45:57] [Togas] I'm reading through a chat that Trip had with 40J this morning
[15:46:07] [Togas] trying to catch myself up on current events.
[15:46:22] * E_T just got back from seeing the matrix and is trying to catch up on things
[15:46:27] [Togas] what I'd like to know is if you guys are willing to fight GC over that iron
[15:46:30] [OctavianX] So FortyJ did contact you?  That makes my trip seem a bit useless...
[15:46:34] [WhiteBandit] anyword on the status of CDG at the moment as well?
[15:46:46] [OctavianX] AFAIK, we haven't talked to CDG at all.
[15:47:15] [OctavianX] As for fighting...
[15:48:12] [OctavianX] I think the general opinion over here is, at the moment, we will try to get them to accept different conditions. We're willing to fight, but don't want to unless it is necessary.
[15:49:06] [E_T] do you need a neutral party to help mediate?
[15:49:26] [Togas] I have no idea how things will go with you guys.  Hopefully something can be solved, but given what I've heard from both sides, it's going to be VERY hard to settle this peaceful.  Seems to me like you guys just hate each other.  :)
[15:49:39] [OctavianX] ET: IMHO, that would be very helpful
[15:50:28] [OctavianX] Believe me, if we didn't have to do things like 'vote,' this wouldn't have happened.  We'ed already have a nice treaty to prevent things like this,
[15:51:10] [OctavianX] A formal peace agreement with very simple conditions between GCA and CFC was actually shot down by citizens at the polls a few weeks ago.
[15:51:26] [WhiteBandit] eww
[15:51:27] [WhiteBandit] :-/
[15:51:39] [E_T] Ah, and no veto powers, I see
[15:51:48] [Togas] Gotcha.  WB is our ambassador to GC, btw.  I'm going to have him get ahold of Lucky, maybe at least get their PoV down and see if they'll tell us what they're really after
[15:52:14] [OctavianX] If I could show you a map, I think you'd understand.
[15:52:17] [WhiteBandit] yeah, that's my other job
[15:52:29] [WhiteBandit] usually, i just sit in front of Apolyton's gates and look pretty for visitors
[15:52:36] [OctavianX] hehe
[15:52:56] [WhiteBandit] maybe you need me to sit in front of Yun Feng and look pretty?
[15:53:01] [Togas] We'd really like to view the situation to better understand the geopolitics.  I know we had a map trade tied to the tech trade, but maybe we can advance and do the map trade now.
[15:53:12] [WhiteBandit] my beautiful complextion relaxes many ;)
[15:53:45] [OctavianX] I'll bring up a straight map-map trade.
[15:54:16] [OctavianX] In the worst-case scenario, we'ed like to know where we're attacking...
[15:54:29] * Togas nods.
[16:00:57] [WhiteBandit] alright
[16:00:59] [WhiteBandit] im off guys
[16:01:03] [WhiteBandit] talk to you all later
[16:01:06] * WhiteBandit is now known as AwayBandit
[16:01:09] [OctavianX] bye
[16:04:06] [Togas] sorry, been busy posting.
[16:04:19] [Togas] as you can imagine, this sort of thing really livens up the forums
[16:04:37] [OctavianX] I would think so.  ;)
[16:06:10] [E_T] from our other game, we have learned that somedays are just nothing going on, then on others, bamn, you have soo much to read and try to reply too that you don't know how your going to do it...
[16:06:32] [OctavianX] I would imagine as such...
[16:07:05] [E_T] especially when to teams that are at war are sniping at each other in the public forums...
[16:07:17] [Togas] public forums??  :)
[16:07:26] [E_T] it can be very humorous at times
[16:07:33] [OctavianX] If only we had the sniping going on in the UN forum, this would be much more interesting.  :D
[16:07:41] [Togas] please supply URL, while I hate getting into a flame war, I have a twisted love of watching them
[16:07:45] [E_T] I'm talking about our PTWDG game
[16:07:49] [OctavianX] I know.  :)
[16:08:04] [Togas] Oooo, yeah.  That thing is a scortcher.  Lots of veiled animosity
[16:09:35] [E_T] and then there are the roleplaying threads that are on the Roleplay team (of which I'm on), they can be taxing to read at times
[16:10:14] [OctavianX] I know the feeling.  The CFC Demogame RPG got really hard to follow...
[16:10:20] [Togas] taxing?  surely you jest.  They tend to be some pretty humorous reading
[16:10:43] [E_T] yes, but having to reply in character....
[16:10:56] [Togas] Oct -- I tried reading the RPG for you guys, I'm lost.   We have a RPG light version for us.  Just a couple threads and no weird rules
[16:11:10] [OctavianX] That would be nice...
[16:11:42] [E_T] still with 6 PBEM games and 3 Demogames, and chats for all 3, I find little time to do much...
[16:11:46] [Togas] mostly just people hamming it up, a few trial threads.  Lately the inqusition has been busy.  Sometimes we'll have a festival or murder or revolt.  
[16:12:08] [OctavianX] Do you guys even actually play the game?  :D
[16:12:14] [Togas] ET does :)
[16:12:17] [E_T] I'm verytankful that I have DSL, or I would go nuts trying to read everything...
[16:13:01] [OctavianX] DSL makes this 28.8 seem slower than ever...
[16:13:11] [Togas] we actually sit down and play it when it arrives.  We have some planning and such in more mundane threads.  It's a good mix.  Some things are RP influenced but most of the RP is game influence.
[16:13:42] [E_T] I had 28.8 and then got my DSL years ago and do not want to go back
[16:13:45] [E_T] brb
[16:26:23] * OctavianX is now known as OctavianX-Away
[16:26:23] * OctavianX-Away has left the Chat. Reason: [Idle for 60 mins. (Auto-away Activated)] Pager: ON
[16:26:41] [Togas] ,
[16:26:49] * OctavianX-Away is now known as OctavianX
[16:26:49] * OctavianX has Returned (Been gone 25secs)
[16:27:00] [OctavianX] I need to disable that...
[16:27:05] [Togas] :b:
[16:27:26] [Togas] I'm doing a bit of housework.  Will be semi-idle.
[16:30:53] [E_T] darn, I just got back and I have to go and clean up some cat puke...
[16:30:58] [E_T] back in a bit
[16:31:45] [OctavianX] ouch...
[16:31:56] * Joins: nye (notyoueith@h24-86-76-127.ed.shawcable.net)
[16:32:02] [nye] hello.
[16:32:14] [nye] sorry, i will stop pestering him in other windows. ;P
[16:32:26] * OctavianX sets mode: +o nye
[16:33:42] [nye] what's up?
[16:34:16] [OctavianX] Oh, nothing....  GCA just declared war on us at CFC, not much...  ;)
[16:34:26] [Togas] :D
[16:34:39] [nye] really?
[16:34:56] [OctavianX] A summary...
[16:34:56] [OctavianX] 1.  GCA has cancelled the Peace Treaty in the game.
[16:34:56] [OctavianX] 2.  GCA has extended a new Peace Treaty in the game.
[16:34:56] [OctavianX] 3.  GCA has offered us peace under the following conditions:
[16:34:56] [OctavianX] -We remove all offensive units from viewing range of their units.
[16:34:56] [OctavianX] -We trade Yun Feng to them or do not connect the iron within that cities radius.
[16:34:56] [OctavianX] -We accept the mountains as a permanent border between our two nations.
[16:35:33] [OctavianX] This comes out of that nasty situation with their warrior in our borders.
[16:35:36] [Togas] war's not been declared yet, but it sounds like it's on course.
[16:35:45] [Togas] did they ever move that warrior?
[16:35:46] [nye] wow
[16:35:53] [OctavianX] Don't get me wrong, we're trying to prevent war...
[16:36:03] [OctavianX] I don't know about the warrior.
[16:36:06] [nye] do you have any other iron?
[16:36:30] [OctavianX] FYI, the last two conditions of peace are unacceptable to Fanatikou, no buts about it.
[16:36:42] [nye] no kidding
[16:37:46] [Togas] I suppose we're all waiting to see what CDG will do.
[16:37:59] [Togas] neither us or CFC has had a chance to talk to them.
[16:38:06] [OctavianX] ohh, wait...
[16:38:25] [OctavianX] Michealis Rex is in #civfanatics...
[16:39:23] [Togas] :D
[16:39:29] [E_T] As of about 1 hour ago, Firaxis sent the save to CDG
[16:39:58] [Togas] wonder if they've played it yet
[16:40:30] [E_T] they haven't posted at 1BC yet, so likely not
[16:46:22] [OctavianX] So, if CDG took our side of this GCA fight, what would Apolyton's stance be?
[16:47:13] [Togas] probably relief that CDG isn't coming after us  :)
[16:48:26] [OctavianX] Rex here just wants to know why Apolyton leaked alliance info to GCA...
[16:48:55] [Togas] Have him drop in
[16:49:40] [OctavianX] I'll ask...
[16:52:20] * Joins: Cheetah^ (~cheetah@ti300720a080-3393.bb.online.no)
[16:53:23] * Joins: MRex (~Micaelis_@ool-44c08bf4.dyn.optonline.net)
[16:53:31] [OctavianX] There they are!
[16:53:31] [MRex] hi guys :)
[16:53:35] [Togas] greetings
[16:53:35] * E_T sets mode: +o Cheetah^
[16:53:39] * E_T sets mode: +o MRex
[16:53:39] [nye] hi
[16:53:45] [OctavianX] FYI: Cheetah is on my team.
[16:53:46] [Cheetah^] lo
[16:53:53] * E_T is now known as E_T_eating_dinner
[16:53:55] * E_T_eating_dinner .
[16:53:56] * Cheetah^ is cfc
[16:53:59] [nye] good name
[16:54:14] [Cheetah^] E_T: are you leaving at this time?
[16:54:20] * E_T_eating_dinner .
[16:54:32] [Cheetah^] apparantly
[16:53:59] [nye] he'll pay attention, but he doesn't talk much with his mouth full
[16:54:10] [Togas] NYE and I are active.  NYE is one of our 3 Consuls, the leaders of our team.
[16:54:44] [Cheetah^] I see
[16:54:44] [Togas] I'm the Advisor on Foriegn Affairs. 
[16:55:45] [OctavianX] He's in the process of getting Kentonio in here, I believe
[16:55:47] [Togas] I think it's fair for me to say that Apolyton is very worried about the turn of events.  We spent a good deal of time trying to convince Lucky to remove the warrior from the iron.
[16:57:25] [MRex] CDG is concerned that APO leaked news of our 3 way coalition to GCA prematurely. This immediately jeperdized the security of CDG, and left us open to invasion by GCA, the strongest team on our continent. Why did you do this?
[16:57:33] [Togas] Just a note -- I have dinner plans with my family for Father's Day (US holiday today) and I need to leave in @20 mins :(
[16:58:28] [Togas] I'm confused.  We had not expected that it would be kept private.  Our understanding was that the Alliance was meant to encourage GC to peacefully resolve this silly warrior issue.
[16:58:59] [OctavianX] IMHO, this seems like a sensible way to resolve the issue.
[16:59:00] [Togas] The only reason to keep it private would be if it was intended as a secret invasion alliance.
[16:59:56] [Cheetah^] unfortunatly the warrior issue is just the latest and most troublesome problem we have had with GCA
[17:00:09] [MRex] Yes, it was. If however they were informed in a more timely manner by CFC, they originators of the plan, CDG could've prepared a little better. As it was, we didn't even have one turn to prepare.
[17:00:32] [Togas] how are your preparations different?  I'm confused?
[17:00:37] [nye] what has happened?
[17:00:53] [nye] beyond gca's ultimatum
[17:01:13] [Togas] NYE -- I think CDG is unhappy that we told GC about the alliance when we met with Lucky a few days ago.
[17:01:44] [nye] i understand. i am wondering what cdg sees in the turn.
[17:03:02] [MRex] As it stands now, our coalition didn't much work anyway, now that GCA has basically declared war on CFC.
[17:03:42] [nye] true
[17:03:45] [Togas] From what I've been told there's no declaration of war.  Simply demands for territory.
[17:04:05] [Cheetah^] its a declearation of war
[17:04:09] [OctavianX] In the game, there is war.  As stated before, we really don't want a fight.
[17:04:14] [MRex] From what I've heard, GCA has cancelled its peace treaty with CFC.
[17:04:22] * Joins: Louis_XXIV (~Java_user@pcp01403473pcs.radnor01.pa.comcast.net)
[17:04:33] [Louis_XXIV] Interesting name
[17:04:40] [Togas] Oct -- from what you told me, they offered peace but under terms, yes?
[17:04:42] [MRex] Our foreign affairs minister, I give you Louis XXIV
[17:04:48] [nye] hello Louis
[17:05:06] [Cheetah^] their demands are of such a nature that cfc cannot accept them without leaving their remaining land open for future GCA agression
[17:05:08] [Louis_XXIV] Hi
[17:06:15] [nye] that is understandable, Cheetah
[17:06:53] [MRex] To answer your question, our meeting was confidential, and CDG doesn't expect confidential meetings to be leaked w/o agreement by all parties involved.
[17:07:01] [Togas] I understand CFC is very much against peace under these terms.  But would you guys accept it under different terms?
[17:07:11] [Cheetah^] yes
[17:07:13] [Cheetah^] peace is good
[17:07:22] [OctavianX] Under more favorable terms
[17:08:15] [Togas] MREX -- I hear you, but I think that you and I were assuming different things.  We assumed the alliance was to try to STOP a war, not to start one.  And an alliance used as a deterrant CANNOT be kept private or it is pointless.
[17:08:55] [MRex] It was not meant to be kept private indeffinently, but it was also not meant to be disclosed immidiately.
[17:09:22] [Togas] Sounds like you guys would rather spring it upon an unsuspecting GC, yes?
[17:10:03] [Louis_XXIV] GC was not unexpecting, they are the ones who want to fight CFC
[17:10:22] [Togas] So GC expected an alliance against them?
[17:10:29] [nye] they want to fight cfc and cdg at the same time? brave fellows.
[17:11:05] [MRex] NYE, they have ignored the threat of fighting all 3 of us at the same time, what does that say?
[17:11:31] [OctavianX] Well, I believe the threat of a triple alliance would get GCA to turn around.
[17:12:18] [MRex] They knew of our tripple alliance before their last turn where they basically declared war on CFC.
[17:12:26] [MRex] *triple
[17:12:32] [Togas] They may have.  And it really concerns me.  We're unsure what step to take next but we want to try to get to the bottom of GC's demands and see what they're really after.
[17:13:15] [OctavianX] They are after some very nice grasslands that we were looking at as the most sane place to settle.
[17:14:02] [Togas] Wouldn't surprise me.  Land and resources ... what most nations fight over :)
[17:14:40] [MRex] So how does CFC and APO want to proceed from this point?
[17:14:58] [OctavianX] north of us are some unfriendly plains, deserts and jungles.  To our west and south is ocean, and to the east, beautiful mountain range, than grasslands...
[17:15:03] [Togas] I have a very good Diplomat -- Master Zen, who's extremely persuasive, and not the sort to fall for any silly excuses.  I'm going to ask him to speak to Lucky tomorrow afternoon.
[17:15:25] [Cheetah^] A removal of the GCA warrior and a continued peace would be nice
[17:15:38] [Togas] We need to level with Lucky.  Make him see the potential consequences.
[17:15:59] [OctavianX] We would very much like a peaceful solution without their outrageous demands, and if need be, a defensive alliance with the rest of the continent.
[17:16:34] [OctavianX] CFC will move back barbarian-fighting warriors they see as offensive, and that's it.
[17:16:45] [Togas] I hear you.  Right now Apolyton is posting like mad about the situation and there are a lot of opinions about what should be done.  I'm sure NYE can speak with more authority about it. ;)
[17:17:28] [Togas] We will do our best to mediate and to communicate your willingness for a peaceful resolution.
[17:17:41] [OctavianX] Thank you.
[17:17:46] [MRex] I think we all want peace. :)
[17:17:49] [Togas] agreed.
[17:18:14] [Togas] Unfortunately, I need to head out right now.
[17:18:20] [OctavianX] One, hopefully final, question: Would eludicia and Apolyton consider an alliance with Fanatikou is the event of an all-out war?
[17:18:30] [nye] alright. i can continue if there is more to discuss
[17:18:39] [Togas] NYE will handle the questions from here on out :)
[17:18:44] [OctavianX] Bye Togas.
[17:18:53] [MRex] Bye Togas :)
[17:18:56] [nye] Octavian, unfortunately, we would not be able to lend meaningful assistance
[17:18:56] [Togas] Good evening to you all.  Thank you for coming.
[17:19:04] [Cheetah^] OctavianX asked a very important question yes...
[17:19:05] [nye] it is too far.
[17:19:08] [Louis_XXIV] bye togas
[17:19:14] [Cheetah^] cya Togas
[17:19:18] * Togas is now known as TogasAWAY
[17:19:20] [nye] we have a smallish, defensive military
[17:19:30] [Cheetah^] nye: how far are we talking about?
[17:19:41] [OctavianX] I'd be hoping such a move on the part of Apolyton would be more pshcological, if anything else.
[17:20:16] [nye] we have discussed the issue at length
[17:20:30] [nye] we would like to do anything we can to assist peace.
[17:20:39] [MRex] What would be expected of CDG?
[17:20:44] [nye] military action for us, now, is not in the cards
[17:21:05] [nye] by apolyton?
[17:21:13] [OctavianX] Any assistance that CDG could offer would be very helpful.
[17:21:19] [nye] yes.
[17:21:27] [OctavianX] And Apolyton, for that matter.
[17:23:13] [OctavianX] We would understand if military assistance was impossible.  Again, I'm looking for pyshcological affects on GCA's morale, so hopefully they'll be defensive on both fronts.
[17:23:30] [OctavianX] Increasing the chance of success of our own offensive.
[17:23:32] [MRex] I cannot agree to anything officially on behalf of CDG at this time, for obvious reasons. :)
[17:23:52] [nye] cdg is on that front. we would not want to do anything to hinder them.
[17:23:53] [Louis_XXIV] Our President is unavailable to talk
[17:24:19] [MRex] And this need to be discussed on our forums. :)
[17:24:41] [nye] it hasn't already?
[17:24:50] [nye] we've talked it to near death
[17:25:09] [MRex] yes, but we have not reached a concensus (sp) yet
[17:25:19] [nye] ahh
[17:25:20] * OctavianX wonders if the other teams are having a better time...
[17:25:41] [nye] octavian, what are your prospects if peace is not reached?
[17:26:13] [Louis_XXIV] How can your military hold out?
[17:26:30] [Louis_XXIV] err- How long?
[17:26:33] [OctavianX] An assault by an 8-strong warrior force on fortified spearmen...
[17:26:59] [nye] their 8 warriors?
[17:27:16] [OctavianX] Our 8 warriors, but that number is likely off.
[17:27:38] [nye] ahh. no other iron then
[17:27:59] [OctavianX] There's an archer near that offending warrior.
[17:27:59] [MRex] after you defeat the spearmen, is that your whole invasion force?
[17:28:00] [Cheetah^] Just to say it: more time would realy be appreciated, since someone is blocking our iron :/
[17:28:02] * Joins: Chieftess (~jgasioro@ppp684.bcpl.net)
[17:28:11] [Cheetah^] hi Chieftess :)
[17:28:14] [Chieftess] hi
[17:28:17] [MRex] hey :)
[17:28:22] [OctavianX] Introducing Chieftess, CFC Moderator extraordinaire.  :D
[17:28:43] [nye] hello, shieftess
[17:28:53] [nye] *chieftess
[17:29:02] [Chieftess] hi
[17:29:11] [MRex] A CDG envoy will be dispatched to GCA soon to talk about there moves of hostility towards CFC. :)
[17:29:11] [Louis_XXIV] Hi
[17:29:56] [OctavianX] I appear to have been wrong...  There's a GCA sword right on the border of our city...
[17:29:59] [Cheetah^] MRex: good :)
[17:30:04] [nye] yes
[17:30:23] * Joins: Trip- (~trip@12-211-215-245.client.attbi.com)
[17:30:28] [Trip-] populated
[17:30:30] [Trip-] :P
[17:30:31] [MRex] hey trip :)
[17:30:42] [nye] hi, trip
[17:30:45] [Trip-] hey
[17:30:50] [OctavianX] Hard to believe this chat has been going on for two hours now.  :D
[17:31:16] [nye] yes
[17:31:28] [nye] is there anything else to discuss?
[17:32:29] [OctavianX] I think everything has been discussed a few times over.  :D
[17:32:36] [Cheetah^] hehe
[17:32:39] [nye] cdg. does it look like you will help cfc?
[17:33:38] * E_T_eating_dinner is now known as E_T
[17:33:41] [E_T] back
[17:33:48] [MRex] CDG is still discussing it, but prospects look good.
[17:33:49] * E_T sets mode: +o Chieftess
[17:33:50] [Chieftess] 12° I got the Powwa stick! 12°
[17:33:52] * E_T sets mode: +o Louis_XXIV
[17:33:56] * OctavianX sets mode: +o Trip-
[17:33:57] * E_T sets mode: +o Trip-
[17:34:01] [OctavianX] :p
[17:34:30] [nye] MRex, alright.
[17:34:41] [E_T] Octavian, from what I just read, GCA has Iron, because they have swords, is that correct?
[17:34:42] [OctavianX] That's good to hear.
[17:34:56] [OctavianX] There is a sword right on our border, so yes.
[17:35:17] [E_T] then what do they want that other Iron for??
[17:35:26] [Cheetah^] OctavianX: isn't there two swords??
[17:35:30] [Chieftess] They're just low... very low.
[17:35:37] [OctavianX] Might be more, I can't tell...
[17:35:38] [Chieftess] resource denial
[17:35:43] [OctavianX] yup
[17:35:45] [Cheetah^] they dont want US to have it ]:(
[17:35:48] [Chieftess] Remember when we were deciding on that spot?
[17:35:57] [Chieftess] That's why I mentioned it.
[17:36:07] [E_T] I could possibly understand if that was the only available Iron for them, but not if they already had it
[17:36:15] [Trip-] do you have other iron?
[17:36:31] [Trip-] pardon my tardiness ;)
[17:36:40] [E_T] they have 2, but the other is in a difficult location
[17:36:40] [OctavianX] no, but there are plans for another settler specifically for it.
[17:36:53] [Trip-] I see
[17:37:04] [Trip-] any plans regarding what you'll do with your units if things come to war?
[17:37:10] [OctavianX] It's a bad city site, in general...
[17:37:23] [OctavianX] none yet, as we hope it doesn't come down to that.
[17:37:34] [Trip-] might be good to get a plan together :)
[17:37:42] [Chieftess] yeah ,but it would have given us a vital iron colony...
[17:38:02] * Joins: MasterZen (Master@dup-200-66-230-117.prodigy.net.mx)
[17:38:09] * E_T sets mode: +o MasterZen
[17:38:10] * Trip- sets mode: +o MasterZen
[17:38:12] [Trip-] doh
[17:38:30] [MasterZen] phew... made it
[17:38:32] [E_T] Ah, here is the person that Togas talked about, MasterZen
[17:39:07] [MasterZen] so, what have I missed?
[17:39:18] [OctavianX] two hours of a diplomatic chat.  :D
[17:39:53] * MasterZen has a feeling he knows what this chat is about...
[17:40:00] [Cheetah^] hehe
[17:40:06] [Cheetah^] well im getting to bed
[17:40:10] [OctavianX] g'night
[17:40:15] [E_T] [Togas] I have a very good Diplomat -- Master Zen, who's extremely persuasive, and not the sort to fall for any silly excuses.  I'm going to ask him to speak to Lucky tomorrow afternoon.
[17:40:17] [Trip-] 'Til lata
[17:40:22] [OctavianX] Just for the hell of it, I'll repeat...
[17:40:24] [E_T] [Togas] We need to level with Lucky.  Make him see the potential consequences.
[17:40:27] [OctavianX] 1.  GCA has cancelled the Peace Treaty in the game.
[17:40:27] [OctavianX] 2.  GCA has extended a new Peace Treaty in the game.
[17:40:27] [OctavianX] 3.  GCA has offered us peace under the following conditions:
[17:40:27] [OctavianX] -We remove all offensive units from viewing range of their units.
[17:40:27] [OctavianX] -We trade Yun Feng to them or do not connect the iron within that cities radius.
[17:40:27] [OctavianX] -We accept the mountains as a permanent border between our two nations.
[17:40:46] [Cheetah^] i was supposed to get to bed when i noticed this diplomatic meeting an hour ago :P
[17:40:49] [Cheetah^] night all
[17:40:58] [OctavianX] The last two conditions are unacceptable to CFC.
[17:41:13] [MasterZen] I understand why...
[17:41:27] [MasterZen] how long have they asked before a definitive answer from you?
[17:41:52] [OctavianX] This demand was made seven hours ago.
[17:42:21] [MasterZen] this is serious though
[17:42:53] [E_T] Octavian, from what they had said, they want that city OR for you to not connect it's Iron
[17:43:03] [MasterZen] do you have another iron source?
[17:43:06] [OctavianX] They have offered a replacement city...
[17:43:08] [E_T] How long will it take you to connect that other Iron?
[17:43:13] [OctavianX] No, we don't have iron elsewhere.
[17:43:30] [OctavianX] Since it's on a moutain, about 6 turns once that warrior moves.
[17:43:37] [MasterZen] hmmm...
[17:43:39] [OctavianX] We've got a road right next to it.
[17:43:50] [Trip-] you could always feign compliance
[17:43:54] [E_T] you said earlier that you had another source, but it would take a while to get to it
[17:43:59] [Trip-] then show up with a stack of Swords once you hook up the other iron
[17:44:32] [OctavianX] We'd prefer an honorable outcome to this, Trip.  :)
[17:44:42] [Trip-] hey, you deserve what you get :P
[17:44:49] [Trip-] they want to sit on your iron and make demands
[17:44:50] [E_T] and buy yourselves a bit of time
[17:44:52] [Trip-] you re-negotiate :)
[17:45:03] [MasterZen] yes but problem is time
[17:45:09] [MasterZen] we need to re-negotiate NOW
[17:45:13] [OctavianX] That other iron wuold take about 20 turns to connect...
[17:45:43] [nye] do you want to fight without iron?
[17:45:48] [MasterZen] after they sent you this proposal have you guys chatted with them?
[17:45:56] [E_T] and a peace treaty that is renegotieated lasts for 20 turns
[17:45:59] [OctavianX] since they have iron, no really, nye...
[17:46:14] [nye] brb
[17:46:29] [OctavianX] FortyJ was chatting with them wehn the prop was made, but after it, he left in anger...
[17:46:50] [Trip-] what do you plan to do?
[17:47:16] [OctavianX] Neogiate different terms with GC
[17:47:39] [MasterZen] we (Apolyton) need to get in touch with Lucky ASAP. Being a "neutral" nation (geographically speaking of course) I think they might be inclined to take us a bit more seriously
[17:47:59] [OctavianX] My thoughts exactly.
[17:48:22] [nye] Togas wants you to do that, MZ
[17:48:27] [E_T] tell them that you won't connect that Iron, but will keep that city, and that you can renegoteiate the iron thing in 20 turns
[17:48:32] [MasterZen] we did talk to them before, Togas did, I was present but didn't really speak much, it seemed to me Lucky understood the consequences of this
[17:48:44] [MasterZen] so this really surprises me
[17:49:24] [OctavianX] ET: That would be impossible for our citizenry to accept, considering their voting record.
[17:49:42] [E_T] let them know that it's that or war
[17:49:50] [MasterZen] ET: they WANT war
[17:49:58] [E_T] and do you think you can win a war against them, right now?
[17:50:03] [MasterZen] swords vs. no-swords, it's a no-brainer
[17:50:09] [OctavianX] true
[17:50:26] [OctavianX] Unless by some miracle we can take and hold their chokepoint city
[17:50:41] [MasterZen] this is the chance they want to get, they are trying to mislead everyone else about who's being the aggressor
[17:50:48] [Trip-] do you have Horses?
[17:50:51] [OctavianX] yes
[17:50:59] [E_T] that's what you have to impress on your Hawks, that they need to take a breather and think about that other Iron, for now
[17:51:07] [Trip-] well what are you waiting for ;)
[17:51:21] [OctavianX] We'd need HBR  ;)
[17:51:25] [MasterZen] see, this is the problem I see:
[17:51:29] [Trip-] chop chop :D
[17:51:32] [E_T] Once you have it connected and some units upgraded, then you can renegotiate from a better perspective
[17:51:33] [MasterZen] GCA want's war
[17:51:36] [MasterZen] they need an excuse
[17:51:40] [MasterZen] they've made demands
[17:51:57] [MasterZen] if the demands are not met, they'll declare and have a "legit" excuse to do so
[17:52:11] [OctavianX] So, you suggest we give in for the time being?
[17:52:18] [MasterZen] i.e. you can't go whine to the UN about it
[17:52:29] [MasterZen] if you think it will avoid it, yes
[17:52:32] [MRex] can someone from poly please step into our private room :)
[17:52:33] [E_T] are you ready to face them, be honest
[17:52:39] [MasterZen] look, here's what I propose:
[17:53:01] [MasterZen] if you, CFC are NOT able to take them on militarily there is one thing Apolyton (and CDG should too) be able to do:
[17:53:31] * Quits: Louis_XXIV (~Java_user@pcp01403473pcs.radnor01.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
[17:53:42] [MasterZen] which is if those demands are met, send GCA a very well written and diplomatic message saying that if they declare war, we'll all hold them responsible
[17:54:03] [MasterZen] technically they will be in breach of a treaty
[17:54:11] [MasterZen] you would of course have to agree not to connect that iron
[17:54:59] [OctavianX] They does seem like a feasible solution.
[17:55:21] [MasterZen] it's the only one I can think of at this moment
[17:55:44] [MasterZen] if I can get in touch with Lucky hopefully I might be able to convince him otherwise but there's no guarantee of that
[17:55:59] [MasterZen] I mean look at it this way: those demands are SUPPOSED to piss you off
[17:56:22] [OctavianX] They did a very good job of doing so,  ;)
[17:56:23] [MasterZen] you're supposed to rush back to your private forum and moan and bitch about it until the Hawks say fuck it, it's war
[17:56:32] [MasterZen] and then they win ;)
[17:57:13] [OctavianX] Don't underestimate our hawks [logedit]They can be very, very, stupid[/logedit]
[17:57:50] [MasterZen] hahaha
[17:57:52] [E_T] LOL
[17:57:53] [nye] oh oh
[17:58:16] [MasterZen] well, I'm a hawk, put I think we should see things the most rational way possible
[17:58:43] [MasterZen] and if this war could end in catastrophe for you guys, then I say first exhaust all other options
[17:58:54] [MasterZen] if it means losing a little dignity so be it, you'll get your revenge
[17:59:52] [E_T] Very goo points, MZ
[17:59:57] [E_T] *good
[18:00:00] [OctavianX] true.
[18:00:35] [MasterZen] I think that's the point you should be willing to tell the hawks
[18:00:41] [E_T] and a peace treaty is for 20 turns, which is about when you said that it would take to get that other Iron connected
[18:00:59] [MasterZen] of course this does not mean you shouldn't be prepared for any unforseen consequences
[18:01:06] [E_T] and when you get the peace treaty, you make sure that it's logged at the UN
[18:01:18] [OctavianX] Of course...
[18:01:33] [E_T] and if they break it, you can then show that they are backstabbers and such
[18:01:39] [MasterZen] and bring it up to the UN
[18:01:47] [MasterZen] and WE'LL bring it up to them too
[18:01:48] [E_T] no one will want to do business with them again
[18:02:21] * Joins: Goonie (~Java_user@CPE00045af2a16d-CM013469902699.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
[18:02:24] [Goonie] ah
[18:02:27] [Goonie] Hello
[18:02:36] [MasterZen] hello :)
[18:02:53] [Goonie] Fanatkou's Ambassador to Apolyton has arrived!
[18:03:03] [Trip-] you missed the meeting ;)
[18:03:14] [Goonie] what?
[18:03:17] [Goonie] What got done?
[18:03:44] [MasterZen] a looot
[18:03:46] [Trip-] everything ;)
[18:03:48] [Goonie] Trip, I hope Zargon posted the proposal I sent him
[18:03:50] * MasterZen sets mode: +o Goonie
[18:05:09] [Goonie] Trip?
[18:05:18] [Trip-] haven't checked
[18:05:21] [Trip-] lots of stuff posted
[18:05:28] [Trip-] one of our FAM guys should know more
[18:06:08] [MasterZen] I've been AFK all day, it was my birthday :D I've been out of the loop for a while ;)
[18:06:22] [OctavianX] Oh, happy birthday!
[18:06:36] [MasterZen] thank you guys ;)
[18:06:53] * E_T slaps the Birthday boy with a Iron Birthday Cake
[18:07:14] [E_T] 12 KLANG....
[18:07:20] [Goonie] Does anyone from Apolyton or Elucidia know about the alliance proposal that was sent to them? Happy Birthday
[18:07:20] * OctavianX sends MZ a birthday doughnut. :D
[18:08:43] [MasterZen] hehehe
[18:08:47] [nye] yes, goonie. it has been discussed.
[18:09:04] * E_T is now known as E_T_outside_smoking
[18:09:07] * E_T_outside_smoking .
[18:09:10] [OctavianX] lol
[18:09:52] [Goonie] Well it would be a great asset to you since you dont have much offensive might to spare. The Northern States Alliance would allow you to be able to have a  claim to all the extra lux's and ressources even if you only contribute two or three warriors
[18:10:03] [Goonie] It is very advantageous for you.
[18:11:01] [Goonie] Lemme pull up the exact clause for  you so you may see the wonderous benefits written in for you.
[18:11:03] [nye] we are unlikely to send military, goonie. we have discussed it at length. too far, and we have built for defence
[18:11:51] [Goonie] if there are any cities that are captured with two luxuries, the second must go to Apolyton for 30 turns. 
[18:12:21] [Goonie] You can no longer spare the two or three warriors?
[18:12:43] [Goonie] Well, I understand. I must be off. German homework
[18:12:53] [MasterZen] do you think 2-3 warriors can make a difference?
[18:13:12] [Goonie] It is symbolic, and it might make a difference yes.
[18:14:46] [Goonie] If anyone on Apolyton needs me, contact me using Apolyton PM or CFC PM. I would love to get a chance to try and convince you guys
[18:14:59] [Goonie] Also, if anyone is Germna here, I might need some help later one :p
[18:15:03] [Goonie] on*
[18:15:36] [MasterZen] we are convinced
[18:15:49] [MasterZen] what we are not so convinced is how useful our contribution can be
[18:15:49] [Goonie] Im good eh?
[18:16:08] [MasterZen] we are committed to the cause, but like we have said, open military action is well near impossible for us at the momemnt
[18:16:41] [Goonie] If Elucidia gives you an ROP how long would it take to get to GCA lands?
[18:17:33] [Goonie] Anyways I rreally need to work
[18:17:36] [Goonie] Bye for now
[18:17:38] * Quits: Goonie (~Java_user@CPE00045af2a16d-CM013469902699.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Quit: Leaving)
[18:18:29] [MasterZen] still a lot
[18:25:23] * E_T_outside_smoking is now known as E_T
[18:25:35] [E_T] ah, nicotine
[18:30:12] * Joins: Goonie (~Java_user@CPE00045af2a16d-CM013469902699.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
[18:30:23] * E_T sets mode: +o Goonie
[18:30:30] [Goonie] MY partenr for my german assignement is busy at the mometn
[18:31:05] [E_T] Trip might be able to help you
[18:31:46] [Goonie] Trip is Germna?
[18:31:57] * Quits: OctavianX (~thesim109@coin-as3-22.coin.org) (Ping timeout)
[18:32:18] [Chieftess] I also know German
[18:32:44] [MasterZen] ich sprachen deutsch
[18:32:45] [Goonie] Excellent. Trip would you like to read over it when it is completed?
[18:32:45] [E_T] Trip is good when it comes to German
[18:32:59] [Goonie] Excellent, lots of Germans around
[18:33:04] [Goonie] Im horrible wiht German
[18:33:09] [Chieftess] Ich spreche Duetsch, auch.
[18:33:22] [MasterZen] habe ich alles vergessen :D
[18:34:16] [E_T] Ich habben kline Duetsch gelernt
[18:34:37] [E_T] and I've forgotten more that I remember
[18:35:16] [MasterZen] german is cool, I like it
[18:35:32] [Trip-] Germans used to be cool
[18:35:36] [Trip-] now they're as bad as France ;P
[18:35:44] * Quits: Goonie (~Java_user@CPE00045af2a16d-CM013469902699.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[18:37:10] * Joins: Goonie (~Java_user@CPE00045af2a16d-CM013469902699.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
[18:37:13] [MasterZen] hey, they got balls...
[18:37:14] [Goonie] err
[18:38:41] [Chieftess] Goonie - everyone's waiting for you 
[18:38:46] [Chieftess] in the CDG chatroom...
[18:51:20] * Quits: Goonie (~Java_user@CPE00045af2a16d-CM013469902699.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout)
[18:58:37] [MRex] gtg guys, ttyl :)
[18:58:40] * Parts: MRex (~Micaelis_@ool-44c08bf4.dyn.optonline.net)
[19:07:12] [E_T] zzzzzzzz
[19:20:41] * E_T is now known as E_T_outside_smoking
[19:28:47] * E_T_outside_smoking is now known as E_T
[19:34:14] * Quits: MasterZen (Master@dup-200-66-230-117.prodigy.net.mx) (Quit: )
[20:17:29] * Parts: nye (notyoueith@h24-86-76-127.ed.shawcable.net)