Registered: Jan 2004
Location: The most erratic Overlord!
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Slavery is of all ages, Darkcloud. They existed throughout most, if not all, of human history. Even today.

Besides, this 'classical' age-sequence is built up on the presumption of a western civilisation IMO.

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DarkCloud

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: of Lists
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yes of course, because all civilizations are in different stages of evolution and that is why slavery currently exists in some, but not in others.

and thus my chart is true.

my chart is also true if the evolution of the game is built on the presumption of a western civilization- because more or less, that's how the 'age' evolution went.

Last edited by DarkCloud on 25-06-2005 at 06:15

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: From New Zealand
Posts: 2052

The Stone age is a neccessary link from ape to man. It is the beginning of Civilization, it is therefore the perfect place to start a game about Civilization.


And like I said before, the Stone Age is different than what you are used to in the other Civ games.

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: The most erratic Overlord!
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So you're not going with Neolithic Era, Fiefdom Era, Imperial Era... and such?

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Registered: Dec 2002
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Posts: 1995

How about an Age of Aquarius?

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: From New Zealand
Posts: 2052

Lets not get ridiculous... lol

I'll leave all that to Spore.

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Posts: 2046

Eras depend on what you want them to be. I hate eras in Civ3 for instance. They lock techs in a way that is even more arbitrary than a standard tech tree. If they are for graphics, then which ones (cities, citizens)?
I can't really answer to what age or era should be included unless I know what that means in terms of the game: does it affect gameplay, and which graphics?

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: From New Zealand
Posts: 2052

quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Eras depend on what you want them to be. I hate eras in Civ3 for instance. They lock techs in a way that is even more arbitrary than a standard tech tree. If they are for graphics, then which ones (cities, citizens)? I can't really answer to what age or era should be included unless I know what that means in terms of the game: does it affect gameplay, and which graphics?

That is a good point; our tech system does not lock techs inside era's.


Era's in Hum are just "identity" slots. They are significant points in your history where you have changed from the last point, and to identify it, we change the interface graphics and the city graphics.

What I need to know are the appropriate eras to put in, eras that are significant changes from the last change.

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: La Ferté sous Jouarre France
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quote: That is a good point; our tech system does not lock techs inside era's.

If you change the interface itself, then it makes sense. I'd pick Early Stone Age and Recent Stone Age (facetted and polished stone), Bronze Age, Iron Age.
These can give a clear, stone/metallic view of the interface.
Then you may want to give a distinct look when you discover printing press, radio and computers. These are means of communication, and usign them in the interface has the potential to show very different looks for the same functions.
Between iron age and printing press, you need something quite flexible, because the dark ages and renaissance are meaningful only locally for instance. So you might want to change the interface based on turmoil, presence of a ruler or feudal system rather than having a fixed progression.
So this gives:
Stone (Early), Stone (Recent) Bronze, Iron, (?), Print , Radio, Computer.
I don't know for the something-in-between. Classical/Feudal/Monarchic...

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Registered: May 1999
Location: July 24,2005 Ctp2 Tiles in sig!
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py Era's in Hum are just "identity" slots. They are significant points in your history where you have changed from the last point, and to identify it, we change the interface graphics and the city graphics.

Why link citygraphics to eras? Just link it to certain techs like stone building, steel etc. There are some third-world countries with mudbrick housing but with troops with automatic weapons.

I guess that was my complaint, a less sophisticated foe should be able to have some access to modern weapons just least capable. The Taliban was pretty medieval but they weren't fighting with knights and pikemen.

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Registered: Dec 2002
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Old fashioned rifles were common in Afghanistan and they got good use out of them. Then, of course, there was the occasional infusion of something more modern like the Stinger missiles.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: From New Zealand
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quote: Originally posted by E Why link citygraphics to eras? Just link it to certain techs like stone building, steel etc. There are some third-world countries with mudbrick housing but with troops with automatic weapons. I guess that was my complaint, a less sophisticated foe should be able to have some access to modern weapons just least capable. The Taliban was pretty medieval but they weren't fighting with knights and pikemen.

At the moment the graphics change once you reach the next era, but I can see now that it would be better if the city graphics changed if you discovered the appropriate inventions/discoveries.

I will take that idea into account, thanks.

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Registered: Mar 2005
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Bit like Civ 2 Test of time then? Invention, Indus. & Automobile changed the city graphic.

JATF

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Minion of the Dominion
Posts: 3778

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud yes of course, because all civilizations are in different stages of evolution and that is why slavery currently exists in some, but not in others.

Slavery still exists in every nation on earth.

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Registered: Jan 2004
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Slavery still exists in every nation on earth.

Unfortunately.

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Registered: May 1999
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py At the moment the graphics change once you reach the next era, but I can see now that it would be better if the city graphics changed if you discovered the appropriate inventions/discoveries. I will take that idea into account, thanks.

Cool! Cant wait to see the next screenshots!

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Registered: Dec 2002
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Slavery still exists in every nation on earth.

Every?

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Registered: Sep 2001
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Please, don't feed the commies.

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Registered: Dec 2002
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Sorry.

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DarkCloud

Registered: Jul 2000
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Slavery still exists in every nation on earth.

Blah.

Not as an institution supported by the state.

And I'd rather not hear a lengthy explanation of how 'pro*st*it*ut*i*o*n is a legally sanctioned form of slavery- even in the netherlands where it's voluntary- to do so would first off get this thread off topic, and second is that you're not changing my mind.

I'd also rather not hear about importing illegal immigrants into a nation to work in factories being slavery either- it's not agricultural, it's not traditional, it's not what people think of when they hear slavery.

Sorry, General.

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: The most erratic Overlord!
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So importing illegal immigrants to work in the agricultural sector is still slavery in your mind?

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DarkCloud

Registered: Jul 2000
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Not necessarily, but General Ludd might make an argument.
-
I'd argue that because they're actually being paid- (regardless of whether it's below the minimum wage) it is not slavery.

And the 'company towns' of the late 19th century would not qualify as slavery either, since those people actually were paid.

The majority of 'slaves' are not paid for their work. They are 'owned' by the masters. There is a large difference between actual ownership and defacto indebtedness.

Would you classify those thrown in Britain's debtor's prisons as slaves?

They're merely repaying a debt that they incurred.

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Harry Tuttle

Registered: Mar 2003
Location: of the Hoople Heads
Posts: 611

Not to disregard slavery and its evil crimes, but wouldn't the Age of Exploration be a more apt term? Slavery has been around for about 30,000 years. Between the Renaissance and Enlightenment the Spanish and Portugeuse explored the world and brought the Old World to the New World. This is a big part of modern history and definately had its own specific time period.

And besides, if the map is a non-earth map, would we really have these ages? Would the Renaissance have started if Venice didn't exist?

Maybe the Ages should depend on the civ who's on top of the heap at the moment. Combine the Civ and the Civs current tech and military progress and you've got: The Age of Roman Aggression. Or: The Age of Roman Ingenuity

Last edited by Harry Tuttle on 30-06-2005 at 21:48

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Registered: May 1999
Location: July 24,2005 Ctp2 Tiles in sig!
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True ages ought to be "flexible"

the current age list is based on the western experience. Western "dark Age" was mideast and Chinese golden age. Chena had a feudal period/warring states period in the early 1900s as well as the pass.

Maybe ages should be geared to political and miltary situation. multi, bi, and uni polar worlds, feudal periods, and darkages. Basically the actions of the players should determine it

if production of cultural buildings exceeds military production for a 20+ year period then its a cultural golden age

if one player is reater than other players combined in score etc you get Pax Romana or Pax Brittania etc.

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Harry Tuttle

Registered: Mar 2003
Location: of the Hoople Heads
Posts: 611

I agree. This would create a real identity to each game that is played. The world would be more unique.

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DarkCloud

Registered: Jul 2000
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Posts: 9446

quote: And besides, if the map is a non-earth map, would we really have these ages? Would the Renaissance have started if Venice didn't exist?

well one could argue that many cultures have experienced Renaissances and revivals of learning and culture- though none to the same degree as the Italian Renaissance.

As you note, ages are a sort of fluid creation.

I like where you and E are going with the development of a less 'real-world-centric' vision of the world and a more 'game-created' one- though I think it needs some more development to become viable.

I'll see what I can think of, then get back to all of you when I have something concrete.

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Harry Tuttle

Registered: Mar 2003
Location: of the Hoople Heads
Posts: 611

Well, as our knowledge of the game is limited, we can only box in a few basic ideas. Here's a go:

Ages can be defined by:

1) Military "points"
2) Tech "points"
3) Culture "points"
4) Exploration "points"
5) Economic "points"

Civ Specific Ages would be defined by a leader in a majority of the fields - Pax Britannia for instance

World Specific Ages would be defined by one of the five examples - Five civs discover the steam engine within 20 years, the Age of Steam is born.

The whole idea is to keep track of abnormal averages in the game. When one type of average jumps out in front of the others then an age is triggered.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: From New Zealand
Posts: 2052

Its a workable idea, but its requirements could prevent ages from ever happening.


If ages are to be more compatible, then we would have to eliminate the known ages we use in the real world and make up our own.


However, to simplify things, I think ages should be defined by technological steps forward, as it makes the most sense.

However, to add variety, we might be able to add a "dark age" aswell as a "golden age" inside of a main age.

So you could be in the industrial age for example, and during that time, there is a lot of corruption within the government, diseases, etc, so your nation enters a "dark age" for a number of turns.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: From New Zealand
Posts: 2052

If you guys can come up with a good workable idea that makes sense, we would be happy to look into it.

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Registered: Nov 2001
Location: soon to be a major religion
Posts: 2837

well more a general idea...(i have this of one of my own failed projects)...each building invention what ever has costs in gold or resources should have a minimum and a maxmum number then at the beginning of each game the computer randamoly chosen a number in between the min. and max. for lets say the cost to develop the wheel. this way each game will be different and you never no what kind of game you are getting...this makes the gamer look much more closely to what has to be done instead of after a couple of games knowing all the costs and can practicaly plan 20 turns add precisely....just an idea to make the game even more playable

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