27-10-2003 20:16									#31
	Inflate your Upload Space

i'd say it has a lot more to do with their massive amount of red tape and high taxes in those countries, not to mention france's (soon to be abandoned) 35 hour working week...

	27-10-2003 20:25									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Absolutly nothing to do with Germany's deep economic problems caused by reunification which have their roots well before the introduction of the Euro then?

This doesn't seem right. The malaise started almost a decade after reunification and some parts of the country are doing OK through the double-dip recession.

quote: And absolutely nothing to do with France's ridiculous obsession with propping up its failing industries with subsidies?

While I agree that this is ridiculous, I doubt the magnitude of this is really a prime driver of the economy.

	27-10-2003 20:31									#33
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by C0ckney i'd say it has a lot more to do with their massive amount of red tape and high taxes in those countries, not to mention france's (soon to be abandoned) 35 hour working week...

I think the 35 hour week is a fantastic idea if adopted uniformly. I am a strong believer in the concept of work to live and not vice versa...we should be working less with the technology we have at our disposal. Instead we have more and more people in parasitic industries and people still working hard...

	27-10-2003 20:46									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

There is a saying that opposition parties don't win elections, governments lose them. Tony Blair doesn't need to worry about an election for 18 months. On the other hand, the Tories should be doing well now if they are to have a chance at the next election. They aren't doing well enough and don't seem likely to improve before the governments pre-election budgets kick in. No wonder some Tory MP's want IDS out.

The joke is that it will take more than a change of leader to sort out the problems of the Conservative Party in the UK.

	27-10-2003 21:10									#35
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: I think the 35 hour week is a fantastic idea if adopted uniformly. I am a strong believer in the concept of work to live and not vice versa...we should be working less with the technology we have at our disposal. Instead we have more and more people in parasitic industries and people still working hard...

I'd prefer to give people the choice to work as many or as few hours as they wish.

	27-10-2003 21:25									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree with Boddies...

	27-10-2003 21:28									#37
	Suffering from ads?

You don't seem to be the only one these days.

	27-10-2003 21:31									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I'd prefer to give people the choice to work as many or as few hours as they wish.

This is an unreasonable dream in France. Flexible times are very often decided by the employer rather than by the employee, at least in the low-wage sector, and the only way to prevent abuse is through law, because our unions suck and our workers are in a weak position.

You may say there's something wrong with the employer-employee relationship, and you'd be right. But that's why we use laws pretty much everywhere a colloctive bargaining would have been enough in another country.

	27-10-2003 22:50									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor This is an unreasonable dream in France. Flexible times are very often decided by the employer rather than by the employee, at least in the low-wage sector, and the only way to prevent abuse is through law, because our unions suck and our workers are in a weak position. You may say there's something wrong with the employer-employee relationship, and you'd be right. But that's why we use laws pretty much everywhere a colloctive bargaining would have been enough in another country.

I thot unions in france were godlike?

	27-10-2003 23:02									#40
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by yavoon I thot unions in france were godlike?

IIRC, about 8% of employees are unionized. Much less than in any anglo-saxon country, including the US. The unions can strike, union members get special protections to avoid them being fired on sight, and some strikes can be followed by no-union members. But the employees are hopelessly weak in comparison with the employers in all but a few French enterprises (from which most srikes stem). That's why the State intervenes so much.

	27-10-2003 23:04									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor IIRC, about 8% of employees are unionized. Much less than in any anglo-saxon country, including the US. The unions can strike, union members get special protections to avoid them being fired on sight, and some strikes can be followed by no-union members. But the employees are hopelessly weak in comparison with the employers in all but a few French enterprises (from which most srikes stem). That's why the State intervenes so much.

so u dont have unions so the state can intervene more. u know at first I thought france not having unions made no sense. but if u put it that way it sorta does.

	27-10-2003 23:17									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well, France does have unions, and they're noisy in the few companies where they are all-important. Besides, like in many other countries, collective bargaining is done with 3 actors: Employers, Unions, State.
The unions are officially recognized by the law, and they're guaranteed by the law to sit at the negociation table, no matter their membership (the power balance among unions is modified depending on membership though).
The relations between employers and employees in France still show the traces of class warfare, and neither the employers nor the employees want to have a real employee power as in Germany. As a result, the Unions have less functions, and it's less attractive to enlist in them. Besides, there is always the scare to be fired when you unionize. It is illegal to fire someone because of the belonging to a Union, but it's more and more tolerated, and the employees live more and more in fear when they dare usher their opinion.

The very bad companies in this regard are the supermarkets and Disneyland. Disneyland has consistently tried to silence its unionists (massive pressure), and as a results, there are only three unionist resistors remaining, who cannot count on the support of their frightened colleagues.

	27-10-2003 23:21									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Well, France does have unions, and they're noisy in the few companies where they are all-important. Besides, like in many other countries, collective bargaining is done with 3 actors: Employers, Unions, State. The unions are officially recognized by the law, and they're guaranteed by the law to sit at the negociation table, no matter their membership (the power balance among unions is modified depending on membership though). The relations between employers and employees in France still show the traces of class warfare, and neither the employers nor the employees want to have a real employee power as in Germany. As a result, the Unions have less functions, and it's less attractive to enlist in them. Besides, there is always the scare to be fired when you unionize. It is illegal to fire someone because of the belonging to a Union, but it's more and more tolerated, and the employees live more and more in fear when they dare usher their opinion. The very bad companies in this regard are the supermarkets and Disneyland. Disneyland has consistently tried to silence its unionists (massive pressure), and as a results, there are only three unionist resistors remaining, who cannot count on the support of their frightened colleagues.

no walmart in france?

	27-10-2003 23:33									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by yavoon no walmart in france?

Nope, local brands: Carrefour (which is also widely exported), Auchan, Leclerc. They are big supermarkets, bigger than what I've seen in San Diego (yet, I only saw local stores in SD)