28-10-2003 06:38									#31
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The people who have the blood of the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagaskai on their hands are the members of the Japanese government who began the war.

	28-10-2003 06:40									#32
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quote: They leafleted virtually all targets of US bombing except for one: Hiroshima. Hiroshima was, prior to the bombing, completely unscathed. It had industry in the suburbs, but the bomb landed directly downtown on the civilian areas. Truman said to the American people that he had struck a "military base." These are facts. You draw the conclusions.

I didn't know that.

My father would have been part of the invasion force prepared for Japan so my opinion is colored, but how many people on both sides would have died without an expedited surrender? I would have made more effort to obtain the surrender without targeting actual cities, something like inviting Japanese officials to observe the first bomb off the Japanese coast. I suspect Truman wanted the Russians to see what the bomb could do to their cities...

The Japanese are culpable, not the US. Now, obviously children can't escape the decisions of their elders so steps to avoid all out attacks on civilians should be taken, but ultimately none of this would have happened if not for decisions made by the Japanese leaders.

	28-10-2003 07:30									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Of course they do. All warfare not used to bring down your own government is evil.

That's pretty brave talk coming from someone who hails from a country that openly assisted the Nazis war effort, and which gleefully made big bucks from killing allied soldiers, so many of whom only wanted teir own countries back.
But hey, it's a free country. No thanks to your folks.

	28-10-2003 07:37									#34
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My father too would have been part of an invasion force. But, truly, had the bomb not been used and had the Japanese still refused to surrender except on the condition that they keep the Emperor, would Truman have ordered the invasion and killed millions of Japanese and Americans solely for this purpose? How would history have painted such a decision? Would the American people have supported a million KIA to support removing the Emperor?

I doubt it.

Many historians have said that given the "offers" by Japan to surrender prior to the use of the bomb, painting the decision to use the bomb as the alternative to invasion is clearly post-war justification created post-hoc by "victor" historians and politicians. Only when the Truman records were declassified forty years after his administration ended did we learn the full truth.

	28-10-2003 07:40									#35
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BTW, my dad was a US Army company commander in 1945 and was in line to become a battalion commander.

	28-10-2003 07:41									#36
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IIRC the Soviet Union actually impeded Japan's efforts to begin surrender negotiations with the western allies. The Japanese had attempted to contact the western allies through the Soviet embassy, thinking that as a member of the alliance the Soviet government would have access to the those allied governments at war with Japan at that time. The Soviet government, which had been planning on offering assistance to the Chinese communists, surrepetitiously "lost" the messages. The Soviet invasion of Manchuria offered the Soviet Union an opportunity to leave huge stockpiles of weapons in the hands of Mao's army.

	28-10-2003 08:10									#37
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Dr. Strangelove, still, Stalin did tell Truman of the contact, give him a copy of the telegram and the Soviet response.

Also, to suggest, that we used the bomb to put off a coup in Japan is to suggest that somehow we knew of the coup even though the Japanese government did not. Anyone who seriously believes this crap is a fool.

	28-10-2003 08:54									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Dr. Strangelove, still, Stalin did tell Truman of the contact, give him a copy of the telegram and the Soviet response. Also, to suggest, that we used the bomb to put off a coup in Japan is to suggest that somehow we knew of the coup even though the Japanese government did not. Anyone who seriously believes this crap is a fool.

Didn't the Soviets sit on the telegram until after they had declared war on Japan?

	28-10-2003 09:00									#39
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No. Stalin gave it to Truman on the initial meeting between them at Potsdam in early July, if I recall the dates correctly.

	28-10-2003 09:30									#40
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quote: That's pretty brave talk coming from someone who hails from a country that openly assisted the Nazis war effort, and which gleefully made big bucks from killing allied soldiers, so many of whom only wanted teir own countries back. But hey, it's a free country. No thanks to your folks.

Now now, guilt by association...

	28-10-2003 09:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No. Stalin gave it to Truman on the initial meeting between them at Potsdam in early July, if I recall the dates correctly.

Which letter was it? I thought that the Japanese originally proposed to withdraw from areas formerly belongin to the western allies without stipulating the future of China.

	28-10-2003 09:59									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Now now, guilt by association...

What? People who associate with Nazis are Nazis associates. What could be wrong with that?

	28-10-2003 11:40									#43
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Dr. Strangelove, I posted Truman's diary entry in the other thread on this topic that was just bumped this evening. IIRC, the letter was from the Emperor calling for negotiations to end the war on the basis that Emperor be retained. The surprising thing was that Truman did not follow up with the Soviets and call for a meeting one way or the other with the Emperor's representatives. He instead issued, with Great Britain, the call for Japan's unconditional surrender towards the end of July.

	28-10-2003 11:54									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit A land invasion of Japan would have killed millions of people- dropping bombs and killing in the order of hundreds of thousands was definitely more acceptable as an issue

Two or three people have said this so far, and I have a question: is there no hierarchy of casualties in a war?

Leaving aside the question of whether the numbers are right, the "millions of people" killed in an invasion would have been, overwhelmingly, soldiers; the hundreds of thousands killed by the bombs were civilians. In wartime, are these really equivalent lives?

(BTW, I'm of the strong belief, based on entries in truman's diaries, that the bombing was more about scaring the bejesus out of the USSR than subduing the Japanese.)

	28-10-2003 12:05									#45
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The only people with blood on their hands are all the Japanese people who thought war was the answer to their problems.

I have read extensively onm Truman's Reasoning for dropping the bomb, and it was to end the war. He made the right choice.

	28-10-2003 12:30									#46
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quote: According to many here, this was a minority position in the government. MtG, DF, and others have argued, persuasvively IMO, that the more fanatical elements of the Japanese government would have mounted a coup had the government tried to surrender.

That's quite true, but I still think the atomic bombings were morally appalling and obviously wrong.

	28-10-2003 12:41									#47
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd That's quite true, but I still think the atomic bombings were morally appalling and obviously wrong.

No, obvious about it. If your country is attacked by another country, and your people are killed by another people, there is only one resort: Total War. The Japanese people remind me of the peopel of America today... whipped up into a blood frenzy, and feelings of invulnerability. I would hate to die for this frenzy, but if our enemies found a way to stop us, I cannot say that any tactic they chose would be despicable. Such is the risk you take when you begin an aggressive war.

	28-10-2003 12:42									#48
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David, there is nothing to suggest in anything I read about Truman's reasons for using the bomb was to forstall a coup by radical elements of the Army. I am not so interested in knowing about the secret plans for a coup in Japan than I am in knowing whether we knew about such a possibility of a coup unless we used the bomb. On its face, the Japanese government was offering a conditional surrender on the basis of retaining the Emperor. We eventually accepted their offer. The dropping of the bombs did not change the position of the Emperor so much as it changed the position of Truman.

	28-10-2003 12:46									#49
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And, IIRC, one of the conditions the Japanase wanted prior to bombs was no occupation of Japan. I believe this condition was dropped after the bombs fell.

	28-10-2003 13:20									#50
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It's interesting reading these posts, as usual most of the historical points are correct. A couple of items got left out. It puts the interptations in an interesting light.

1) (missing fact - from Grolier.com) At the Casablanca Conference in January 1943, Roosevelt and Churchill--most probably to allay Joseph STALIN's suspicions of the loyalty of his allies--proclaimed a policy of unconditional surrender for Germany, Italy, and Japan as the only means of maintaining the peace.

2) Soviets foward offer for conditional surrender - see (1) above.

3) Announcements we will only permit unconditional surrender to US (and UK) public. See (1) above.

4-6) Dropping A-bombs and Russian invasion of Manchuria. The arguments over which pushed the Japanese over to surrender will go on as long as we have historians. The consensus is that they all contributed, and as our one poster made the point, the second bomb might not have been dropped except for weather, assuming Japan would have surrendered after Hiroshima and the Soviet invastion. Note, though, they still hadn't at the point Nagasaki was bombed. Would they have done so in two more days? We will never know.

quote: Actual Text of the Japanese surrender I N S T R U M E N T O F S U R R E N D E R We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China, and Great Britain on 26 July 1945 at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Repub- lics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers. We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under the Japanese control wherever situated. We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilites forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which my be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction. We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Headquarters to issue at once orders to the Commanders of all Japanese forces and all forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender un- conditionally themselves and all forces under their control. We hereby command all civil, military and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, and orders and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to ef- fectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority. We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever actions may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Poers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration. We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all allied prisoners of war and civilian internees now under Japanese control and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance and immediate transportation to places as directed. The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to ef- fectuate these terms of surrender. Signed at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0904 I on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER, 1945

As best as I can read, that's an unconditional surrender. There were quid-pro-quos (as in leaving the Emperor alone and not charging him with war crimes, which could be an entire new topic), which the US Occupying authorities could have ignored at any time. General MacArthur, not my favorite historical figure, understood what would be involved in occupying Japan and turning her into an ally. I'll let the historical record speak for itself. I wish multiple countries involved in conflicts and occupying other people's countries at this time would appoint people as knowledgable as MacArthur. Not that he was perfect by any stretch, but as the head of a foreign, culturally different occupation force he definitely did better than the majority of other examples we have.

So, to recap from mutiple posts and history.

Did we have to drop the bombs? No.
Did it prevent more US causulties, probably in the thousands if not tens of thousands. High probabilty
Did Truman have the estimates of casualties. Yes, though the numbers are argued over.
Would Japanese civilian casualties have been higher, due to starvation (see my sign at the end of the post) and/or invasion. High probability.
Was it a BAD (best available data) decision made by Truman given the context above. Subject to discussion, but I will argue yes given the context.

If you want to argue morality, the allies, and WW2, argue Dresden. Now that could get messy

	28-10-2003 14:00									#51
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This is one of the few topics where I will bust out the American Flag and start singing the Star Spangled Banner...

	28-10-2003 15:33									#52
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The US, not the others who did not use nukes on civilian targets.

P.S. Japan had already surrendered, the US administration bombed them anyway because they were vengeful arses.

	28-10-2003 16:24									#53
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IMHO Every country in such a total war everyone have some blood on its hand.

Some more, some less, but noone have managed to get out of WW2 "clean".

Saluti

	28-10-2003 19:22									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Two or three people have said this so far, and I have a question: is there no hierarchy of casualties in a war? Leaving aside the question of whether the numbers are right, the "millions of people" killed in an invasion would have been, overwhelmingly, soldiers; the hundreds of thousands killed by the bombs were civilians. In wartime, are these really equivalent lives?

IIRC there were substantial civilian casualties at Okinawa. There were also horrific civilian casualties in when the allies liberated Manila from the Japanese. Given that the Japanese would be fighting in cities, and that the Japanese were mobilizing the entire population, there was every reason to expect massive CIVILIAN casualties from an invasion. Not to mention casualties from starvation, etc as the blockade continued and the japanese internal food distritbution system collapsed.

	29-10-2003 06:16									#55
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quote: Leaving aside the question of whether the numbers are right, the "millions of people" killed in an invasion would have been, overwhelmingly, soldiers; the hundreds of thousands killed by the bombs were civilians. In wartime, are these really equivalent lives?

In a total war like WW2, yes, I think they are equivalent.

	29-10-2003 06:21									#56
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To me every life is valuable.... from child to soldier.

	29-10-2003 08:01									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Elden The US, not the others who did not use nukes on civilian targets. P.S. Japan had already surrendered, the US administration bombed them anyway because they were vengeful arses.

Hiroshima was bombed August 6th. Nagasaki was bombed August 9th. Japan surrendured August 10th:

quote: (Department of State Bulletin, Vol. XIII, No. 320, Aug. 12, 1945) August 10, 1945 Sir; I have the honor to inform you that the Japanese Minister in Switzerland, upon instructions received from his Government, has requested the Swiss Political Department to advise the Government of the United States of America of the following: "In obedience to the gracious command of His Majesty the Emperor who, ever anxious to enhance the cause of world peace, desires earnestly to bring about a speedy termination of hostilities with a view to saving mankind from the calamities to be imposed upon them by further continuation of the war, the Japanese Government several weeks ago asked the Soviet Government, with which neutral relations then prevailed, to render good offices in restoring peace vis a vis the enemy powers. Unfortunately, these efforts in the interest of peace having failed, the Japanese Government in conformity with the august wish of His Majesty to restore the general peace and desiring to put an end to the untold sufferings entailed by war as quickly as possible, have decided upon the following. "The Japanese Government are ready to accept the terms enumerated in the joint declaration which was issued at Potsdam on July 26th, 1945, by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and China, and later subscribed to by the Soviet Government, with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler. "The Japanese Government sincerely hope that this understanding is warranted and desire keenly that an explicit indication to that effect will be speedily forthcoming." In transmitting the above message the Japanese Minister added that his Government begs the Government of the United States to forward its answer through the intermediary of Switzerland. Similar requests are being transmitted to the Governments of Great Britain and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics through the intermediary of Sweden, as well as to the Government of China through the intermediary of Switzerland. The Chinese Minister at Berne has already been informed of the foregoing through the channel of the Swiss Political Department. Please be assured that I am at your disposal at any time to accept for and forward to my Government the reply of Government of the United States. Accept (etc.) Grassli, Charge d'Affaires ad interim of Switzerland The Honorable James F. Byrnes

This is what we sent back the next day:

quote: Secretary of State August 11, 1945 Sir: I have the honor to acknowledge receipt of your note of August 10, and in reply to inform you that the President of the United States has directed me to send you for transmission to the Japanese Government the following message on behalf of the Governments of the United States, the United Kingdom, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and China: "With regard to the Japanese Government's message accepting the terms of the Potsdam proclamation but containing the statement, 'with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a sovereign ruler,' our position is as follows: "From the moment of surrender the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate the surrender terms. "The Emperor will be required to authorize and ensure the signature by the Government of Japan and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters of the surrender terms necessary to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration, and shall issue his commands to all the Japanese military, naval and air authorities and to all the forces under their control wherever located to cease active operations and to surrender their arms, and to issue such other orders as the Supreme Commander may require to give effect to the surrender terms. "Immediately upon the surrender the Japanese Government shall transport prisoners of war and civilian internees to places of safety, as directed, where they can quickly be placed aboard Allied transports. "The ultimate form of government of Japan shall, in accordance with the Potsdam Declaration, be established by the freely expressed will of the Japanese people. "The armed forces of the Allied Powers will remain in Japan until the purposes set forth in the Potsdam Declaration are achieved." Accept (etc.) James F. Byrnes Secretary of State Mr. Max Grassli Charge d'Affaires ad interim of Switzerland

Sorry if the truth does not conform to your world view.

	29-10-2003 08:30									#58
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quote: "In obedience to the gracious command of His Majesty the Emperor who, ever anxious to enhance the cause of world peace, desires earnestly to bring about a speedy termination of hostilities with a view to saving mankind from the calamities to be imposed upon them by further continuation of the war

Yeah, his majesty loves peace.

	29-10-2003 08:31									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Yeah, his majesty loves peace.

I thought that was kind of funny too.

	29-10-2003 09:59									#60
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quote: with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler.

I can SOOOOO understand why we wanted unconditional surrender. The Emperor is still Sovereign Ruler? That'd be like if Hitler didn't kill himself to leave him as President of West Germany!