01-11-2003 08:07									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I was a prolifer before I became a Christian, so my beliefs that an unborn child is a human person can be based on purely secular terms.

Converts are always the worst. ^-^

	01-11-2003 08:13									#32
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My sole condition on the harvesting of human embryos is that they not be conceived for that specific purpose. As this bill facillitates that, I'm all for it.

	01-11-2003 09:03									#33
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for the folks who are attempting to make the argument:

Fetus/Embryo = Human Subject

I would ask then....why are they not referred to as human at that stage of their development?

They can become humans, yes....but the ability to become a thing and BEING that thing are not the same. If you doubt that, take several tons of concrete, glass, and steel, and put them in your back yard.

Do you have a skyscraper?

There is some debate about exactly *when* HUMAN life begins....we don't really know, but we know some places when it doesn't, an in the aforementioned fetuses and embryos....it doesn't.

-=Vel=-
$0.02
PS: For those of you who DO buy into the fetus = human argument, I would ask....when's your birthday and how do you measure it?

Seems to me that if you believe in your heart of hearts what you're saying, you'd measure your birthday from the time of conception....just a thought.

	01-11-2003 11:21									#34
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What is it that makes it human the instant the sperm scores? Why not before that? Because they weren't in the same location? In so little time there is no change at all in them compared to what they were just second ago when the sperm was digging its way in. If you believe in souls, does it get its soul issued to it then?

	01-11-2003 11:24									#35
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I'm not quite sure what the article is saying, but this is my view on the issue:

human cloning - somewhat bad, but also stupid; why can't you just make babies the normal way?

stem cell research - perfectly fine

actually cloning or producing babies to harvest their body parts - really really bad

	01-11-2003 12:10									#36
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Well, most of the time the Bible has the soul issued at birth rather than conception IIRC.

	01-11-2003 12:42									#37
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The fetus has this laptop while in the mother's womb, and he logs onto EBay to buy a soul.

Is that how it works???

	01-11-2003 12:43									#38
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INVADE CANADA!

	01-11-2003 12:44									#39
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No -- it's "BLAME CANADA!"

Not, "INVADE CANADA!"

	01-11-2003 12:52									#40
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Come get some, poser.

	01-11-2003 13:45									#41
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Let me clarify my position on this . I do not support harvesting embryos if they have reached a certain stage of their developement (capable of feeling pain , to take a basic example, ie , having a functioning CNS or brain) . Again , these must be embryos that were headed for the dustbin , like products of abortion . Also , nobody gets paid for them , to discourage conception just for this .

I also have absolutely no qualms about conducting experiments experiments on if the above criteria are met . Also , in no phase of the experiments should be embryo progress further , ie , make the transition from "discarded couple of cells" to "huamn in developement" .

Also , the post was not a troll against religion . It was an expression of my opinion of people who base their agruments on their personal religious beliefs , no matter how sacred or final those beliefs may seem to them . Also , I did not say that you were a person who did so . It was just meant to convey my idea that religion has no place in pure science . Indeed , we have the results of such interference throughout history , and are seeing them now (Vatican saying condoms are useless against HIV , etc) , and they have been uniformly disastrous .

If we want to nitpick about the time when an embryo makes the transition from a few indeterminate cells to a human , I'd leave that to the experts .

	02-11-2003 13:28									#42
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quote: They can become humans, yes....but the ability to become a thing and BEING that thing are not the same. If you doubt that, take several tons of concrete, glass, and steel, and put them in your back yard. Do you have a skyscraper? There is some debate about exactly *when* HUMAN life begins....we don't really know, but we know some places when it doesn't, an in the aforementioned fetuses and embryos....it doesn't.

Not a bad analogy, however it fails for a rather deep point. There is a difference between substance and property. Substance things can lose a part and still remain the same entity.

This is the difference between us and a skyscraper. A skyscraper will not grow and develop by itself, it requires people to construct the building. This is different from an unborn child in that the child will grow the same we we all do, with food and shelter.

There is no debate about when human life begins, at least not according to doctors and medical textbooks. They agree that human life begins at conception.

Now, suppose we agreed with your point that no one knows when human life begins. Does this mean that we are allowed to kill something we are not sure is human or not? It's like hunting, you don't pull the trigger until you know your target.

	02-11-2003 13:34									#43
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quote: Stem cell research can bring excellent good news to medical research

What if I could show you all ethical alternatives that do even better than embryonic stem cells? Would you agree with me to shift the research away from embryos to these other sources?

	02-11-2003 13:37									#44
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If you're against assisted reproduction, why don't you just not use it.

I don't understand why you feel you must convert everyone in your path.

If there's one thing people hate it's religious people all high-and-mighty dictating what people should or should not do.

	02-11-2003 13:40									#45
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quote: PS: For those of you who DO buy into the fetus = human argument, I would ask....when's your birthday and how do you measure it?

Why would my birthday be anything other than the date of my birth? I would date my conception and the beginning of my existence to nine months before my birth.

tinyp3nis:

quote: In so little time there is no change at all in them compared to what they were just second ago when the sperm was digging its way in. If you believe in souls, does it get its soul issued to it then?

No, you get a very big change in the zygote as opposed to the egg and the sperm. This change can be represented in the genetic code of the zygote differing from either parent, unlike the sperm or the egg.

	02-11-2003 13:48									#46
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quote: I do not support harvesting embryos if they have reached a certain stage of their developement (capable of feeling pain , to take a basic example, ie , having a functioning CNS or brain) .

aneeshm:

Why this stage and not others? What is so special about being able to feel pain? Animals feel pain. They also have a functioning brain.

quote: Again , these must be embryos that were headed for the dustbin , like products of abortion

What's a product of abortion? Why don't we experiment on homeless people without their consent? Nobody cares about them. They are just going to die anyway.

quote: religion has no place in pure science

What makes science 'pure'?

	02-11-2003 13:52									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why would my birthday be anything other than the date of my birth? I would date my conception and the beginning of my existence to nine months before my birth. tinyp3nis: No, you get a very big change in the zygote as opposed to the egg and the sperm. This change can be represented in the genetic code of the zygote differing from either parent, unlike the sperm or the egg.

What big change? The change is not big, it's tiny, it's minimal, just another step in the ladder. Why should I think the zygote is something special? WHY?

Let's say in my "lab" I have female and male reproducive cells, I take it that you wouldn't mind so much if I desided that I don't need them afterall and I throw them into carbage because they have no further purpose (nobody should really mind since people's bodies do this all the time).
What if I had just combined them into a zygote for an adoption child and realise "oops" wrong dad not the one they requested.... I throw it into carbage once again. Why wouldn't you?

	02-11-2003 13:52									#48
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quote: If there's one thing people hate it's religious people all high-and-mighty dictating what people should or should not do.

That's six. Can't you at least be original in your trolls?

Your argument reminds me of something very similar.

"Don't like slavery, don't own a slave!"

	02-11-2003 13:52									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What if I could show you all ethical alternatives that do even better than embryonic stem cells? Would you agree with me to shift the research away from embryos to these other sources?

Please do so, if you can. It's now 12 years into my mother's long, slow and horrible decline with Parkinson's Disease. During that time, I've watched something that may provide a cure be shuffled around between governments too spineless or too impotent to take action.

During that time I've heard the "we might come up with something better!" pleas used many, many times. We haven't. Now, for my family, I think it's too late, and for millions of other families too. If your feel your principles outweigh that cumulative mass of human misery, then your principles are impressive indeed. Possibly only to yourself, however.

	02-11-2003 13:55									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That's six. Can't you at least be original in your trolls? Your argument reminds me of something very similar. "Don't like slavery, don't own a slave!"

Can't you at least be original in your trolls?

The problem is perspective -- the only reason you have a problem with assisted reproduction is your religion, period.

Not everyone shares your religion, and chances are very high that even if one religion is correct that yours is not. So deal with the fact that other people have different opinions and all of your protesting and yelling at people for doing things like stem cell research is doing nothing but annoying those people.

In fact, opposing things such as stem cell research only prolongs human suffering, so I'd say the people against such research obviously shouldn't be compared with those that supported emancipation...

	02-11-2003 13:59									#51
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quote: What if I had just combined them into a zygote for an adoption child and realise "oops" wrong dad not the one they requested.... I throw it into carbage once again. Why wouldn't you?

I see no difference between the zygote and an infant. It's in my argument way up in this thread. Just as we would not throw an infant into the garbage for having the 'wrong' parents, neither should we kill the zygote.

Secondly, your terminology shows you are thinking of a commodity. The child has to meet our own wants, in having the 'wrong' parents.

	02-11-2003 14:07									#52
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quote: the only reason you have a problem with assisted reproduction is your religion, period.

Where have I spoken out against either the assisted reproduction portion of this bill, or in favour of a religous perspective in this thread?

Your case lacks proof, unless you suddenly have mind reading powers.

quote: opposing things such as stem cell research only prolongs human suffering,

Hey, I don't oppose stem cell research, just embryonic stem cell research. There are very promising ethical alternatives, one of them being cord blood, or using a person's own cells.

	02-11-2003 14:14									#53
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Yes, that's what it is, a piece of meat to me. You still haven't answered why should I change my attitude towards it. One moment they are separated, next they aren't. They zygote doesn't mind, because it doesn't have any more understanding than the sperm.
What goes to the would be person argument, here the analogy is like this.
It's no different to what people do everyday, prevent people to be born. John likes Mary, but Mary likes Ted and the child will be Teds and Marys child, the creation of John/Mary will never take place, but that is no murder. In life, we have the choice to decide who we have kids with, or not having kids at all. Is that wrong to prevent lives like that(not even talking about abortion now)? The zygote was not wanted, so it went to the carbage.

Tell me why I should keep the zygote alive. Is it suffering? Or are you?

	02-11-2003 14:26									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I see no difference between the zygote and an infant.

Then let me help you see. In any medical instance where doctors are forced to take decisions on who survives between the mother and the unborn child, they will always save the mother. Take threatened ectopic pregnancy as an example.

Until birth, an unborn child's rights are subordinate to those of a born infant. Once you accept that, it's just a question of where you draw the line.

	02-11-2003 14:33									#55
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quote: PS: For those of you who DO buy into the fetus = human argument, I would ask....when's your birthday and how do you measure it?

My birthday is that day of the year I was "birthed", and it is measured in solar years from that day.

quote: Seems to me that if you believe in your heart of hearts what you're saying, you'd measure your birthday from the time of conception....just a thought.

"Birth" and "conception" have different meanings. If we followed your argument, you became a human being once you left the birth canal but not before. Sorry, but that's illogical...

	02-11-2003 14:35									#56
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quote: Then let me help you see. In any medical instance where doctors are forced to take decisions on who survives between the mother and the unborn child, they will always save the mother. Take threatened ectopic pregnancy as an example.

She's paying the bill...

	03-11-2003 04:25									#57
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quote: Then let me help you see. In any medical instance where doctors are forced to take decisions on who survives between the mother and the unborn child, they will always save the mother. Take threatened ectopic pregnancy as an example.

Laz:

Good point.

However, the reason we save the mother and not the child is not because the child is less valuable that the mother, but because we cannot save the life of the child in an ectopic pregnancy.

We have a choice between doing nothing and letting both die, or in doing something and saving the life of the mother. Therefore, the ethical choice will save the life of the mother.

Going to reply to the rest after I grab a bite to eat.

	03-11-2003 05:08									#58
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vel:

quote: Seems to me that if you believe in your heart of hearts what you're saying, you'd measure your birthday from the time of conception

I just wanted to point out that, this IS when most asian cultures start counting their age. Food for thought.

edit: i used to be a pro-lifer. now i believe that a child can be aborted at anytime at all, at the parents choice, up until it's 18th birthday.

I'm kidding, of course.

	03-11-2003 05:19									#59
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quote: They zygote doesn't mind, because it doesn't have any more understanding than the sperm.

Tiny P3nis:

So 'understanding' is what makes us a person? Can you get into greater detail how we know a person properly understands?

quote: It's no different to what people do everyday, prevent people to be born.

There is a difference between contraception or in declining to have children. In either case you do not end the life of a human being. We keep coming back to this point as to the origins of personhood. From conception, everything that a child needs to grow and develop is present, therefore personhood ought to start with conception.

quote: Tell me why I should keep the zygote alive. Is it suffering? Or are you?

I feel nothing, no pain whatsoever. Can you measure suffering? How do you know that the unborn child does not suffer?

	03-11-2003 10:17									#60
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quote: I feel nothing, no pain whatsoever. Can you measure suffering? How do you know that the unborn child does not suffer?

Oh I think western medicine agrees with me here that it does not.
How do I know the sun on the sky is not just a big light bolt? They told me it's a star, then explained what a star is and I believed them because it makes sense and there is no proof against it.