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KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
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  Old Post 20-11-2003 05:54 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Because if they don't they'll be hauled before the WTO and slapped with tariffs.


It's also costing them a fortune to peg the yuan at an artificially low rate.

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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 20-11-2003 17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
For the life of me, I cannot find that article. Can you cut and paste?

I'm interested.


This is the IMF text :

quote:


On October 31, 2003, the International Monetary Fund's (IMF) Executive Board concluded the Article IV consultation with China.1

Background

Over the last few years, China has maintained its strong growth momentum and continued its rapid integration into the global economy. Despite the difficult world economic environment and domestic uncertainties, China's GDP growth has remained above 7½ percent in recent years, supported by appropriate macroeconomic policies and structural reforms. Spurred by accession to the WTO in December 2001, China's exports have expanded rapidly. At the same time, robust domestic demand and further market opening under China's WTO commitments have also led to strong import growth.

Real GDP grew by 8 percent in 2002, underpinned by the strength of exports and fixed investment, which registered growth rates of 22 percent and 17 percent, respectively. In 2003, the outbreak of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) in the second quarter temporarily dampened GDP growth as activity in the services sector weakened. However, external trade continued to expand rapidly, and the services sector appears to have made a quick rebound. In the first three quarters of 2003, GDP grew by 8½ percent (year-on-year), led by strong fixed investment. Deflationary pressures have been easing. After declining by 0.8 percent in 2002, consumer prices increased by 0.7 percent in the first nine months of 2003. Despite the strong GDP growth, unemployment continues to rise; registered unemployment in the urban areas increased to 4 percent in 2002, up 0.4 percentage points from 2001. The level of surplus labor in the agricultural sector is estimated to be larger, and rural-urban income disparities have continued to widen.

China's overall external position has strengthened further. The current account surplus rose from 1½ percent of GDP in 2001 to 2¾ percent in 2002, mainly on account of increases in the trade surplus and private transfers. The financial account posted another large surplus in 2002, as foreign direct investment (FDI) inflows amounted to $53 billion and there was a repatriation of other capital from abroad. Official reserves increased by $76 billion in 2002. In the first 9 months of 2003, the trade surplus declined sharply as imports surged by 41 percent, while exports grew by 32 percent. However, official reserves rose by $98 billion, reaching $393 billion by end-September (equivalent to around 10½ months of imports). While FDI inflows have remained strong, the pickup in the pace of reserve accumulation in 2003 mostly reflects other capital inflows.

As the economy rebounded from the SARS epidemic, growth has picked up in the second half of 2003 and is now projected to reach 8½ percent for the year. Economic activity should remain strong in 2004, with the economy growing at about an 8 percent annual rate. Prices are expected to post small increases over the next year and one half, as the effects of some increases in commodity and food prices would more than offset downward pressures from supply-side factors, including lower tariffs and ongoing productivity gains. The external current account surplus would decline somewhat, as further WTO-related trade liberalization boosts imports, while export growth would slow down from the very high rates recorded over the last year. Sizable net capital inflows, including FDI, are likely to continue, and the external position is expected to remain strong.

With regard to structural reforms, in the banking sector, stricter prudential regulations and improving lending practices have contributed to a decline in the reported ratio of nonperforming loans to total loans, and asset management companies have made progress in recovering distressed assets. In the state-owned enterprise (SOE) sector, the government has continued to introduce shareholding and modern management systems into large SOEs, while exiting from the smaller enterprises. Since 1997, more than 27 million workers have been laid off as a result of closing of loss-making SOEs and reduction of redundant employees. To mitigate the social impact of reforms, the authorities have taken steps to strengthen the social safety net, including by increasing pension payments, widening coverage of the unemployment insurance and urban minimum living allowance assurance schemes, and providing assistance to laid-off workers for finding new employment.

Executive Board Assessment

Executive Directors commended the Chinese authorities for the economy's impressive output growth and further integration with the global economy. While near-term economic prospects generally remain favorable, Directors cautioned that continued strong investment activity and rapid money and credit growth could lead to a buildup of imbalances in some sectors of the economy. Directors also emphasized that medium-term prospects depend critically on the pace of structural reforms, especially for the banking system, the state-owned enterprises (SOEs), and labor markets.

Directors welcomed the measures the authorities have taken to curb growth of monetary and credit aggregates and, in particular, lending to the real estate sector. However, Directors called for stronger action to rein in excessive credit growth and curb potential overinvestment in some sectors of the economy. Continued strong credit growth could affect the overall quality of the loan portfolio of state banks, adding to the nonperforming loan problems these institutions already face.

Most Directors noted that there is no clear evidence that the renminbi is substantially undervalued at this juncture. Directors also felt that a currency revaluation would not by itself have a major impact on global current account imbalances—particularly given China's relatively small share in world trade. Nevertheless, Directors considered that the rapid build-up of foreign exchange reserves indicates some pressure on the exchange rate and imposes costs on the Chinese economy, especially difficulties in preventing excessive monetary expansion. In this context, Directors observed that increased flexibility of the exchange rate over time would be in the best interest of China. In particular, it would allow more room to pursue an independent monetary policy, help cushion China's economy against adverse shocks, and facilitate adjustment to the major structural reforms that are underway. Directors considered that China could, in a phased manner, introduce more flexibility to its exchange rate without causing major disruptions to its economy. Most Directors stressed that a move toward flexibility should be carefully planned and sequenced with ongoing structural reforms that are crucial to its success, and emphasized the need to move speedily with these reforms. They felt that the timing of a shift toward greater exchange rate flexibility should be left to the authorities to decide. A number of Directors, however, felt that the authorities should take advantage of the present circumstances to take quickly an initial step toward greater exchange rate flexibility. Directors underscored the need to improve the functioning of the foreign exchange market by eliminating trading restrictions and surrender requirements, widening the base of participants, and developing instruments for foreign exchange risk management.

Directors supported the authorities' gradual approach to capital account liberalization, observing that a key prerequisite for liberalization is a well-capitalized and sound banking system. They welcomed the implementation of the Qualified Foreign Institutional Investor scheme, and considered that the strong external position provided the right environment for the launching of the Qualified Domestic Institutional Investor scheme and other initiatives aimed at removing some of the restrictions on overseas investment by Chinese residents. Directors noted, however, that while these initiatives are useful, they will not have a substantial impact on capital flows in the short run, and they would not be effective substitutes for moving toward greater exchange rate flexibility.

Directors cautioned that the medium- and longer-term fiscal outlook remains a source of vulnerability. They pointed to the substantial future demands that may be placed on the budget to meet quasi-fiscal liabilities in the financial sector and the pension system, the costs of restructuring SOEs, and increased demands for social services—in part associated with an aging population. Against this background, Directors welcomed the good prospects for meeting the authorities' target for this year's fiscal deficit. Given a likely over-performance on revenues, Directors urged the authorities to stick to budgeted levels for spending and to use the additional revenue to reduce tax refunds owed to exporters and to further consolidate the fiscal position. Directors welcomed the authorities' intention to keep the level of the fiscal deficit roughly unchanged in nominal terms over the next few years, which will imply a declining trend in the deficit relative to GDP. In addition, they supported the authorities' efforts to establish a framework of three-year rolling fiscal forecasts that will set fiscal policy in a medium-term context.

Directors emphasized that a number of important reforms will provide crucial support to fiscal adjustment. They supported the ongoing efforts to improve tax administration and the tax structure, including shifting VAT from a production to a consumption base and extending it to services. They underscored the importance of allowing for rising social expenditure needs and of improvements in public expenditure management through better prioritization. Directors noted that these reforms would have implications for lower levels of government, and stressed that local governments should have sufficient fiscal resources to carry out their responsibilities. In this context, Directors supported a more comprehensive reform of center-local fiscal relations, including improved reporting by the provinces. They also encouraged a stronger effort to improve fiscal transparency, especially regarding quasi-fiscal liabilities and off-budget activities.

While recognizing that progress has been made on financial sector reform, including the establishment of the new China Banking Regulatory Commission, Directors stressed that much remains to be done to establish a sound and competitive banking system. They looked forward to the development of a comprehensive reform plan for state-owned banks. They also stressed the need to continue to reduce the large stock of non-performing loans and curb the flow of new ones. This will require a strengthened regulatory regime, including an improved legal framework for creditor rights, foreclosures, and bankruptcy procedures. Directors encouraged the authorities to reduce the tax burden on financial institutions, including through the allowance of full deductibility for loan-loss provisions and a shift in the business tax from a gross-interest to a net-interest basis. Moving ahead expeditiously to liberalize lending rates was also generally supported, as it would help banks increase their commercial orientation by learning to price risk appropriately. Directors welcomed the authorities' intention to provide additional capital injections in the state-owned commercial banks only when the banks have demonstrated substantial improvements in performance and governance, and recommended that such decisions be made in the context of clear plans regarding the future ownership structure of the state-owned banks.

Directors commended the start of work on a self-assessment of the financial sector. They recommended that China participate soon in the Financial Sector Assessment Program, as this could help in formulating the next steps in financial sector reform. Directors welcomed the recent implementation of the Anti-Money Laundering Administrative Rules for financial institutions and encouraged the authorities to continue with their efforts to improve the regime for combating terrorism financing.

Directors underscored the importance of pushing forward with the reform of the SOEs, including changes in the ownership structure. They welcomed the establishment of the State Asset Supervision and Administration Commission of the State Council, and urged the authorities to establish transparent procedures and the market infrastructure for the sale of assets to ensure that the state receives fair value. Directors also supported continued efforts to enforce hard budget constraints and effectively deal with loss-making SOEs in a timely fashion, establish modern enterprise management systems, improve the incentive system for senior managers, relieve enterprises of their social responsibilities, and increase competition by, inter alia, breaking up large state utilities and monopolies.

Directors considered rising unemployment and the widening gap between rural and urban incomes to be pressing problems. They stressed the importance of addressing the employment and social aspects of the reform process, and of strengthening the safety net to mitigate the social costs of reforms. In this regard, they welcomed the reduction of obstacles for rural migrants to work in urban areas and increased payments to laid-off SOE workers, and recommended further reform to allow freer movement of labor. Job growth in the private sector could be stimulated by improved access to financing and reduced barriers to entry into new lines of business. Directors also encouraged the Chinese authorities to revise key parameters of the current pension system to ensure long-term viability and minimize contingent liabilities.

Directors noted that trade reforms, including those implemented as part of WTO accession, have contributed to the rapid expansion in China's external trade. They encouraged the authorities to continue to implement WTO commitments, including market openings in banking, insurance, and retailing. Directors expressed appreciation for China's provision of debt relief in line with the HIPC Initiative.

Directors commended the improvements that have been made in the compilation and timely provision of economic statistics. They urged the authorities to make further improvements, including providing annual and quarterly real GDP data on an expenditure basis; reporting data on the international investment position as soon as feasible; presenting the fiscal accounts on a standard government finance statistics basis; and compiling labor market data in a manner consistent with international guidelines. In this regard, they welcomed China's recent subscription to the Fund's General Data Dissemination Standard and its intention to join the Special Data Dissemination System in the future.


DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 20-11-2003 18:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


First of all the Chinese Central Bank does not have the power to maintain a peg without buying dollars. That fact stands alone by the fact that Chinese currency exists outside of China.



You never recover from your missing the first five minutes of the foreign exchange course; the teacher said : a non convertible currency cannot be used in foreign transactions.

This is why you cannot answer the question regarding the payment of the dollars supposedly bought.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Mar 2003
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  Old Post 21-11-2003 20:12 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT


You never recover from your missing the first five minutes of the foreign exchange course; the teacher said : a non convertible currency cannot be used in foreign transactions.

This is why you cannot answer the question regarding the payment of the dollars supposedly bought.


That's because I can buy and sell Chinese currency here in the US.

The dollars are paid for in remnimbi. That's what a currency exchange is.

Last edited by Kidicious on 21-11-2003 at 20:17

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  Old Post 23-11-2003 01:38 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Wasn't looking, but I just happen to run across this.

Made in China

quote:
Due to its trade surplus with the United States, and its currency's peg to the U.S. greenback, China has been a steady buyer of dollar-denominated assets.


I hope we can lay this matter to rest now.

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DAVOUT,

What does all this matter anyway? The point is that the Chinese peg the dollar and this results in them retaining dollars. Even if what you were saying were possible and true, who cares? The result is the same. That is that the weaker they maintain the currency peg to the dollar the more dollars they retain.

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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 23-11-2003 05:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
DAVOUT,

What does all this matter anyway? The point is that the Chinese peg the dollar and this results in them retaining dollars. Even if what you were saying were possible and true, who cares? The result is the same. That is that the weaker they maintain the currency peg to the dollar the more dollars they retain.


Everybody interested in the subject cares (and commercial relations with China will interest more and more millions of people soon) :
- China has excess dollars only because they have a positive trade balance which is currently shrinking because of their considerable imports, and a flow of foreign investments; this is not guaranteed for the future; on long period the Chinese foreign trade is likely to be comfortably balanced. The US foreign deficit is with the whole world, and we see no trend toward its reduction.
- There is a huge difference between converting dollars earned through trade in dollar assets (Treasury bonds) and buying dollars on the market. The later is in the realm of speculation (generally accelerating dramatically a trend), and the former is made through much more controlable channels, and has only an indirect effect over time on the value of the dollar. But both result in strengthening the dollar, that is indirectly strengthening the yuan.
- Accordingly, we can safely anticipate that any significant change in the peg rate will be the consequence of a huge variation of the dollar, until the Chinese economy has an internal need for a change.

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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT
- There is a huge difference between converting dollars earned through trade in dollar assets (Treasury bonds) and buying dollars on the market. The later is in the realm of speculation (generally accelerating dramatically a trend), and the former is made through much more controlable channels, and has only an indirect effect over time on the value of the dollar.

Buying dollars does contribute to earning them through trade. The yuan are used to buy Chinese imports and to invest in China. The more dollars they buy the more they will export to the US.
quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT
But both result in strengthening the dollar, that is indirectly strengthening the yuan.


Huh? How does this strengthen the yuan?

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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 23-11-2003 06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious

Buying dollars does contribute to earning them through trade. The yuan are used to buy Chinese imports and to invest in China. The more dollars they buy the more they will export to the US.


Huh? How does this strengthen the yuan?



Even after a sympathetic effort, I am obliged to tell you that your first paragraph has no meaning whatsoever.

A currency is said to become stronger, compared to other currencies, when you need less of it than you needed before for buying a given quantity of other currencies.

In the particular case of the yuan/dollar, about 2 years ago, you needed one dollar to buy one Euro, and correlatively you needed 8,28 yuans for one Euro. When the dollar later increased in value, you needed only 0,8 dollar for one Euro, and corrrelatively you needed only 6.62 yuans. The relationship between the yuan and the dollar remained the same which resulted in a strenthening of the yuan.

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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT
Even after a sympathetic effort, I am obliged to tell you that your first paragraph has no meaning whatsoever.

It's similar to the central bank buying bonds to increase the liquidity in the domestic economy. Buying foreign currency with your currency increases your exports and FDI the same way that your central bank uses monetary policy to increase domestic spending and investment.
quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT
A currency is said to become stronger, compared to other currencies, when you need less of it than you needed before for buying a given quantity of other currencies.

In the particular case of the yuan/dollar, about 2 years ago, you needed one dollar to buy one Euro, and correlatively you needed 8,28 yuans for one Euro. When the dollar later increased in value, you needed only 0,8 dollar for one Euro, and corrrelatively you needed only 6.62 yuans. The relationship between the yuan and the dollar remained the same which resulted in a strethening of the yuan.

The yuan would strengthen if it were not for the peg. The peg prevents it from strengthening. The whole deal does nothing but weaken both currencies. Because of it the Chinese have to invest so much in the US economy that other investment is discourage, hence the weak dollar.

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  Old Post 23-11-2003 07:04
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I sincerely believe that you should write your complete theory on the peg. I am not sure the Chinese would be interested, but the Nobel jury ... hehe ...

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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT
I sincerely believe that you should write your complete theory on the peg.


It's not my theory. You're the one with your own theory. I'm waiting for you to tell us how it jives with the fundamentals of economics.

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  Old Post 25-11-2003 21:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious



The yuan would strengthen if it were not for the peg. The peg prevents it from strengthening. The whole deal does nothing but weaken both currencies.


Terribly wrong.

Regarding a more recent period than the one I was referring to, and during which the dollar weakened, please read the following :.


Excerpt of IMF Global financial stability report – September 2002. (2nd quarter)

quote:


…. Three Asian economies – China, Hong Kong SAR, and Malaysia- have exchange rates pegged to the U.S. dollar. Their currency automatically weakened as the dollar fell, helping improve their competitiveness vis-à-vis other economies in the region. …..



You will notice that the pegged currencies follow AUTOMATICALLY, the variations of the dollar.

I am note sure you are interested in learning what a pegged currency really is, but if you are, you could read at this address:

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2003/wp03160.pdf

an IMF paper on Exchange Rate Regime detailing all possible arrangements.

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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 25-11-2003 22:03
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Is there a co-relation between military power and currency standing? Meaning that the stronger currency the weaker the military power. So military power is inversely proportional to the value of the currency. If so that would suggest that a weak currency is actually a sign of increasing miltarism.

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  Old Post 25-11-2003 22:33
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Weak Currency favours (Industrial/Economic ) Growth due to making Exports of said Country more Attractive to the Rest of the World. I cannot really relate this to the Military because I lack the Data.

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A weak curency also makes it more expensive to import. hence there would be an incentive to find substitutes for imported goods, by investing in domestic industry producing hitherto imported products. Hence that would further strengten the overall strategic position as the interdependence with the outside is lessened.

Of course the whole area of direct foreign investments seem to override any benefits to currency manipulation. Unless the surplus value taken out of the targeted country is denominated in the targeted country's currency. Then a weakening of the currency would help deter further increase in foreign investments.

Considering that most foreign investment is possibly in the service sector that would siphon off jobs from the industrial sector. So in order to combat this it would make sense to adopt a weak currency which both creates demand in the industrial sector and weakens the foreign earnings on direct foreign investmnents.

So it is a win/win situation.

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  Old Post 25-11-2003 23:42
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Remember Germany 1920's Didnt seem 'Win/Win'
But overall I agree :=)

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  Old Post 26-11-2003 00:10
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Main_Brain.

You don't think that Capitalization of all Nouns is an overt Attempt at cultural Imperialism?

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  Old Post 26-11-2003 03:15
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For a nation, having a weak currency is not a stable state. The weakness is the consequence of imbalances in the foreign trade account or/and treasury account. The currency weakens during the building up of the deficits, then stabilizes during the correction phase which necessarily occurs. The imbalances are generally caused by an excess of consumption, individual or/and collective (such as the military), the reduction of which through taxation and cancellation of spending programs being the basis of the corrective plan.

It should not be regretted that a weak currency cannot last, because ultimately the weakness means that you are selling the work of your workers at a not profitable price or that you are unable to sell it because nobody wants it even at a bargain price. Hardly a win/win situation.

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  Old Post 26-11-2003 05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT




For instance, you cannot oblige a developping country such as China, to allow the free circulation of money, because it would open the door to international speculation which is dramatically disruptive for a developping country.


What are you? A commie? Do all Euros think this way, Roland?

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  Old Post 26-11-2003 15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TCO


What are you? A commie? Do all Euros think this way, Roland?


I was making a technical statement, reflecting the IMF philosophy on that subject; nothing political.

BTW, the famous economist commie, Kidicious, is likely sharing your opinion that China should be obliged to do what the US want, as far as the yuan rate is concerned. Are you a commie ?

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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT
I am note sure you are interested in learning what a pegged currency really is, but if you are, you could read at this address:


I'm interested if you point out some support for your argument in that paper.

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  Old Post 03-12-2003 20:17
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As I said, it is an IMF working paper on Exchange Rate Regime detailing all possible arrangements.

I suppose that technical definitions issued by the IMF could be acceptable to any unbiased reader, and possibly even to you.

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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT
As I said, it is an IMF working paper on Exchange Rate Regime detailing all possible arrangements.

I suppose that technical definitions issued by the IMF could be acceptable to any unbiased reader, and possibly even to you.



Where did you get this crazy idea that the Chinese don't buy dollars? Show me a source.

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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT


I was making a technical statement, reflecting the IMF philosophy on that subject; nothing political.

BTW, the famous economist commie, Kidicious, is likely sharing your opinion that China should be obliged to do what the US want, as far as the yuan rate is concerned. Are you a commie ?


They should be able to do whatever they want.

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quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
Is there a co-relation between military power and currency standing? Meaning that the stronger currency the weaker the military power. So military power is inversely proportional to the value of the currency. If so that would suggest that a weak currency is actually a sign of increasing miltarism.


During a period of military building a stronger currency is more desirable because resources are very scarce. A strong currency makes imports cheaper. Importing goods allows the nation to build more military because it frees up resources.

A weak currency allows the nation to export more goods. There are advantages to it also. If the nation has excess capacity and unemployed resources increasing its exports allows it to reach full capacity and full employment.

When a nation is building its military up reaching full capacity and full employment are not problems. So the only way to produce war goods that exceed your capacity is to run a trade deficit and keep your currency strong. Of course being able to keep your currency strong during wartime is another problem all together.

Last edited by Kidicious on 03-12-2003 at 20:47

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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious



Where did you get this crazy idea that the Chinese don't buy dollars? Show me a source.


There is no source dedicated to Kidicious education.

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  Old Post 03-12-2003 20:48 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT


There is no source dedicated to Kidicious education.


Oh shut up!

DanS is offline DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
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  Old Post 03-12-2003 20:51 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
For instance, you cannot oblige a developping country such as China, to allow the free circulation of money, because it would open the door to international speculation which is dramatically disruptive for a developping country.


Yeh, I agree with TCO. Whenever somebody says that a market is harmful, my bullshitmeter goes off and I start hunting for the marxist in the bunch.

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
King
AUERSTADT
Jun 2002
time: 05:31
  Old Post 03-12-2003 21:34
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Put an end to popups!

The facts are :
- the national authorities are responsible for the choice of their foreign exchange arrangement because it has a great reciprocal influence on the national economy;
- this is an accepted principle by the IMF;
- this is not denied by the US who ask for a reevaluation not for a change from the peg to something else;

This is why I said *you cannot*.

Another fact is that markets can be harmful : the currency asian crisis was a great example. Interestingly, at the time of the crisis, the imunity of the (non marketed) yuan helped decisively to end the crisis.

Hunting for the marxist, whatever pleasant it could be, does not help to understand complexity.

May I offer you a prejudicemeter for personal use?

 
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