02-11-2003 01:04									#31
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Ned - problem with that. The opposing theory in the thread (the one I posted) would also say that that is the RIGHT thing. It would also just add the qualifier that we didn't HAVE to do it.

	02-11-2003 01:05									#32
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker No, you aren't responsible. When someone got shot last night (I'm sure it happened, somewhere in the world) I didn't call the police. Am I responsible?

No, you aren´t responsible for anything that happens anywhere, but if someone threatens to kill another one down on the street and you´re looking out of the window to watch the show instead calling the police you´re partly responsible IMO (not as guilty as the murderer of course). Or if you see some victims of a car accident on the street but don´t stop to help them etc....

	02-11-2003 01:09									#33
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I give some of my income to charity.

That said, a lot of the suffering in this world is brought about by people who want to be able to do whatever the hell they want without having to be responsible about it.

Freedom without responsibility is anarchy.

Gatekeeper

	02-11-2003 01:12									#34
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You are responsible for your actions. You are punished for doing something WRONG.

	02-11-2003 01:13									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ned John C. McLeod, what if I could demonstrate to you that we could permanently help the poor in the Third World by improving their governments against their will and if necessary by overthrowing them? Would this justify such a foreign-policy?

I would, if it made sense, worldwide. ( i.e. the situation worldwide would turn to the better)

	02-11-2003 01:13									#36
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro No, you aren´t responsible for anything that happens anywhere, but if someone threatens to kill another one down on the street and you´re looking out of the window to watch the show instead calling the police you´re partly responsible IMO (not as guilty as the murderer of course). Or if you see some victims of a car accident on the street but don´t stop to help them etc....

I'm NOT responsible. My action IN NO WAY caused the person's death. I merely DIDN'T SAVE HIS LIFE. If my inaction caused his death, than my inaction when I'm not there also caused his death.

	02-11-2003 01:14									#37
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Define wrong. Ah, yes, not so easy is it? One man's wrong is another man's right and so on. One culture's wrong is another culture's right. One religion's wrong is another religion's right. One nation's wrong is another nation's right. The list goes on and on.

With that in mind, I have a simple motto: Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.

Gatekeeper

	02-11-2003 01:15									#38
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I DID define wrong. See my first post (maybe my second).

WRONG is committing an act that harms another person (or their property).

	02-11-2003 01:16									#39
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To the original question: No.

I don't (and shouldn't) feel guilty for not going out of my way to help someone less fortunate. If I do so, hey, good for me. But I shouldn't feel guilty for not doing so.

	02-11-2003 01:16									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Define wrong. Ah, yes, not so easy is it? One man's wrong is another man's right and so on. One culture's wrong is another culture's right. One religion's wrong is another religion's right. One nation's wrong is another nation's right. The list goes on and on. With that in mind, I have a simple motto: Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated. Gatekeeper

Ah, yes, I COMPLETELY agree that you SHOULD help the person, but I do not agree that you MUST.

Otherwise, you end up with, again, the Inquisition.

	02-11-2003 01:17									#41
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"You are responsible for your actions. You are punished for doing something WRONG"


Well, I don´t know how it is in the USA, but if you see a car accident on the street where you drive/walk, but don´t help and the police gets it you can be punished here in Germany. Not sure what the max. punishment is in such cases.

So in-action can bring you in trouble too.

	02-11-2003 01:18									#42
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I'm NOT responsible. My action IN NO WAY caused the person's death. I merely DIDN'T SAVE HIS LIFE. If my inaction caused his death, than my inaction when I'm not there also caused his death.

But you made the choice to not help him. Making a choice is active and I say you acted wrong.

	02-11-2003 01:19									#43
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Yes, but it that law is WRONG. It is WRONG to punish someone for not doing something RIGHT.

Again, otherwise the logical conclusion is a totalitarian state in which everyone is required to be perfect.

	02-11-2003 01:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.

	02-11-2003 01:20									#45
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quote: But you made the choice to not help him. Making a choice is active and I say you acted wrong.

Nope; I didn't act RIGHT. Otherwise, show how me not helping him CAUSED his death. I am only responsible for what I CAUSE, not what I don't prevent.

	02-11-2003 01:20									#46
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Yes, but it that law is WRONG. It is WRONG to punish someone for not doing something RIGHT. Again, otherwise the logical conclusion is a totalitarian state in which everyone is required to be perfect.

I disagree. It is simply another (broader) definition of your duties.

	02-11-2003 01:21									#47
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Nope. In that example, the LOGICAL conclusion is that it is your DUTY to do the RIGHT thing, and therefore it should be illegal to NOT do the RIGHT thing. Thus, you have a totalitarian state.

	02-11-2003 01:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Generally a safe statement to make. As to the actual thread, well, I have no idea how to answer it without dipping into theology, but I agree to some extent with the starter. We'll leave it at that.

Actually, while I find him to be knowledgeable, I disagree with MTG on a number of things . . . its just in this case there is nothing gained by feeling guilty and I agree with him.

	02-11-2003 01:23									#49
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I am only responsible for what I CAUSE, not what I don't prevent.

Looking for a career as a politician?

	02-11-2003 01:24									#50
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In the case of a politician, if it is their job (translate: DUTY) to prevent something, then not performing their job is WRONG.

EDIT: Same goes for a firefight who gets a 911 call and then decides he doesn't feel like going down there, etc

	02-11-2003 01:25									#51
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I've thought about this.. I don't know if I feel guilty about it, but I feel sometimes something. About the third world and poor people. I mean the very poor people.

I have an option to think about and drive myself crazy and label myself as a bad person for not helping as much as I could. Or, I could help some. But in order to 'feel good' about myself would mean giving up everything I have and ever will have to help the poor people. Everything, starting from my computer. How many people would live for how long with that money? I bet many people would last a lot longer. If I don't give it my all and really try to help as much as possible, then what am I doing? Trying to make an excuse to feel good about myself.. I did something, right? Wrong, I could do more. I could help more.

So I just chose not to feel guilty about it.

	02-11-2003 01:30									#52
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Nope. In that example, the LOGICAL conclusion is that it is your DUTY to do the RIGHT thing, and therefore it should be illegal to NOT do the RIGHT thing.

It is not your duty to do always the right thing, but it is your duty to help eg. those victims if you can. It does not follow that you have to be perfect. Eg. when you´re giving first aid to a injured guy you cannot be blamed if you make a mistake during this process, because you aren´t a qualified doctor.

quote: Thus, you have a totalitarian state.

No, because it is safe to say that the majority of people would like to have help in such cases. Therefore the majority of society would consider such a law ok, so you can´t speak of a totalitarian state in this case.

	02-11-2003 01:32									#53
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People don't have to help *all* the time to be of assistance to others. If they help just some of the time, that's better than never. Ideally, all the time would be nice, but then we begin running into the very nature of what it is to be human. And that debate is one that's been going for thousands of years ...

Gatekeeper

	02-11-2003 01:38									#54
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Yes, and since you can't help all, you choose who you help. I choose to help my friends and family always and they come first no matter what. After that I can help others too, if it means giving money. And that time should come when I start making money. I figure I can give to charity no problems.

	02-11-2003 01:49									#55
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I think that most of us should feel guilty but we have justified our indifference. The socialist justifies his by paying more taxes, thinking he is saving the world and getting the poor away from his front door. The libertarian justifies his indifference by helping himself, thinking that universal greed creates a system where the poor can lift themselves up by their own bootstraps. The Capitalist justifies his greed by giving crumbs to the poor from time to time. And we here at Apolyton play silly games on the computer and argue about the problems in the world, thinking that by talking about them we don't really need to help our neighbor unless he knocks on the door screaming that he has been shot. Then we call 911 and look out the window thinking we have done a great service to mankind.

	02-11-2003 02:03									#56
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And in case of Africa for example.. Sometimes I do feel kind of bad about eating when I'm already full and then throwing the rest to carbage, and then come here to complain because I can't buy a swimming pool right now.
Sure..

.. but I'm also frustrated sometimes, that it seems like no matter how much you'd give money there, they'd still be in trouble. Giving money is short term solution, and while thinking about the long term helping, naturally there needs to be short term solutions as well. But I admit, that I'm sometiems angry at some African people that when someone is trying to help them, granted the helping is too low level, they still fight all the time and it makes it so much worse. I don't know if I'm justified to be frustrated and angry about that sometimes, but it comes naturally to me, and I don't think it makes me a bad person.

	02-11-2003 02:09									#57
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I don't feel guilty. It's one of the few inherent benefits of psychopathy.

	02-11-2003 02:19									#58
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker It is WRONG to punish someone for not doing something RIGHT. Again, otherwise the logical conclusion is a totalitarian state in which everyone is required to be perfect.

Society has decided that life is something to be preserved. If you see someone drowning in a pool and you can swim but you don't try to save that person, then you are responsible for his eventual death. You'll not be punished because you didn't do something right, you're going to be punished because you broke the law.

	02-11-2003 02:21									#59
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Even Julian Cope feels guilty.

	02-11-2003 02:32									#60
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Well Pekka, at least you care. That is a good start. Sometimes we just fall into opportunities to do some good. Supporting corrupt governments in Africa (or charities that are filtered through the corruption) isn't too helpful to the people who actually need the care. I used to work with homeless people a little and it turned out to be a joke. But on the other hand I am continually amazed at how much money the West has to squander and how a few dollars would do so much to simply help one kid who would like to have a chance at life.

I get emails from a volunteer in an orphanage in Thailand that will have to shut down this year because they are broke. The kids can go to hell as long as we have a new computer. We, in the prosperous West are like the "rich man and Lasarus" parable in the Bible. We throw crumbs to the beggars and then blow a trumpet to tell everyone how much we care.