09-11-2003 12:42									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Patriotism and Nationalism are bad because it make people thnk their contry is more important then the rest of the world. I give alligence to no country, I am a citizen of Earth

and bullshit.

I learned my debating skills from Fez

It has nothing to do with me thinking my country is more important.

And I'm tired of people telling me I shouldn't feel patriotic.

I'm sorry I don't hate my country like you lefties do. I try and try, but I just can't do it.

Let me put it this way. Unlike you brainwashed lefties. I am a free thinker. Being patriotic doesn't cause me to think a certain way. I am free to think any way I want. I don't support president Bush- even though I am patriotic. Because I have the ability to analyze each individual situation and come to my own conclusions.

Let me just say again for the lefties who don't understand. There is a difference between patriotism and blind patriotism.

	09-11-2003 12:49									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Odin: A country may be a pretty, alluring fallacy that we have all been brought up to love and serve [cough] diss [/cough], but it is a fallacy nonetheless, and it causes more harm than good to subdivide the human race into a series of nations. Arthur C Clarke puts it best when he says "there is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a vacuum".

I'm not done with this post yet.

I was not brought up to love my country. I went through public schools. We were not trained to love my country. And my father hated the goverment. He did not bring me up to love my country.

subdivide the human race into a series of nations? You imply that we were once whole, and someone just came through and divided things.

Some of you lefties really have no concept of how the world works, or human nature. I suggest studying history- specifically history when the humans switched from being hunter-gatherers to an agricultural society. This will teach you a thing or two about nations.

You lefties are in some dream world. Some of you need a reality check on how the world works, and the dark side of human nature.

I think it's time some of you realize that science fiction types have no better way to rule the world than warmongering republicans. Just because they are smart, doesn't mean they know anything about common sense.

	09-11-2003 13:00									#93
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P.S. I didn't serve in the military because I love my country.

You think I want to fight in some bullshit war by some warmongering republican? Not a chance.

I was in the military for the money and training. Oh, and to see the world.

	09-11-2003 13:09									#94
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I also love my state.

You know why?

Because it has better laws than other states. The same applies to my country. It is nice living in a country where I'm not persecuted for my beliefs. If every country were as good as the U.S. I would have no need to be patriotic would I?

I'm not patriotic out of reflex. I analyzed the laws in my country, and laws of other countries (and I have visited many countries in the navy), and have determined I like the laws in my country the best.

Case Closed!

	09-11-2003 16:23									#95
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quote: I'm sorry I don't hate my country like you lefties do. I try and try, but I just can't do it.

Strawman.

quote: subdivide the human race into a series of nations? You imply that we were once whole, and someone just came through and divided things.

The human race, we divided ourselves according to opinions, religions, geographic location, colour. I fail to see why a state is any different.

quote: I don't support president Bush- even though I am patriotic.

That goes without saying! You love your country, therefore you dont support Bush!

quote: Let me just say again for the lefties who don't understand. There is a difference between patriotism and blind patriotism.

Just as their is a difference between "liking" ones nation, and loving it. For me, and only me I hasten to add, that difference is where one is willing to die or give service to that country. I like democracy (to a point) and freedom, I dont love it.

As you so elequently put it, patriotism is a leftist trait. Technically my non patriotism (individualism) is a conservative trait, though you can look at that in different ways of course.

quote: I was not brought up to love my country. I went through public schools.

We all were. Imo its just a question of something finding the rare mental fortitude to resist it, which of course most lack. In that respect, I count myself lucky. Even in Britain where we don't have to worship the flag every morning in our state schools, we are still taught "British" values, conformist traits and a British-centric history. We didn't even learn about the Boar war until we were 15!!! I'm not even going to get started on what a sociologist might call a hidden curriculum! .

quote: Some of you lefties really have no concept of how the world works, or human nature. I suggest studying history- specifically history when the humans switched from being hunter-gatherers to an agricultural society. This will teach you a thing or two about nations.

I happened to have spent a number of years studying history and taking an interest in anthropology. Fortunately, I have also taken in interest in philosophy as well, which has taught my not to blindly accept the world as it is, and work with a model that is falling apart at the seams, but fight for a better world, or at least conceptualise it. I leave it to the narrow minded idiots to impliment this of course, thats not my concern, but the fact that my ideas are "unrealistic" and against human nature at this time does not serve as a refutation of their validity. Incidentally, "human nature" as one might simplistically call that highly complex idea, is changing. 10'000 years ago, we would have all raped and murdered by now, or been murdered. Now I, for one, find both of those ideas repugnant. Imagine a world where this team sport mentality is confined to the stadium.

quote: Just because they are smart, doesn't mean they know anything about common sense.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Einstein Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.

quote: also love my state. You know why? Because it has better laws than other states. The same applies to my country. It is nice living in a country where I'm not persecuted for my beliefs. If every country were as good as the U.S. I would have no need to be patriotic would I? I'm not patriotic out of reflex. I analyzed the laws in my country, and laws of other countries (and I have visited many countries in the navy), and have determined I like the laws in my country the best.

Then you like your state. Thats not patriotism unless you define yourself by your state, which requires love as it is irrational. Its ok, you can justify that by the human condition. When people call me inhuman, I take it as a compliment!

	09-11-2003 16:41									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Osama Bin Laden loves USA more than I like DK What? You good-for-nothing-Dane. Take pride in the country that gave the world Lego bricks, ombudsmen and Aqua. The one and only country with a higher population of pigs than people. And remember to vote no every time they ask you!

That's among the reasons I hate it... vote yes, and it's going to turn out ok... Danes is just a bunch of nay-sayers... Everytime I tell people to diss the queen, they always say no
(It's a queen we've got, isn't it?)

...and about this pig thingy:

The reason we've got a higher pop of pigs than people is because most people are pigs

	09-11-2003 16:45									#97
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well love is a strong word.

Can someone love an inanimate thing like a country? countries really only exist in the minds of men (and women).

I just like it a lot. I believe it works (for the most part) and would defend it against attack. I would not wage offensive war I consider unjust.

And yes I do try to be optimistic, and think eventually we can move beyond countries.

	09-11-2003 16:49									#98
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Lets say that one would consider it so important to oneself that one would fight and die for it. I call it love, but obviously that term varies more from person to person that perhaps any other.

I don't define myself by my country. I dont support sports teams, my home town or my nation. I take an objective view in past, present and future wars. I do not see why my, or British values are necessarily better because I either hold them, or live in a society where they are held. I consider myself human, until we make contact with an alien race, where I would consider myself sentient. Scratch that, I don't use that "high watermark" approach, i.e., British, -> European, -> Jewish -> White, -> Human -> Sentient -> Existing, rather instead of these fluctuating labels, I merely say that I am me. The only label that can be applied to me is "Ben Joseph Elijah", I believe in nothing else.

	09-11-2003 18:38									#99
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The thing which annoys me about patriotism is the fact that it is basically conditioned into people, like Pavlov's dogs.

That feeling you get when you see your flag and the national anthem. It's nothing magical. It's just your brain pumping a load of feel-good chemicals into your blood. Like it has been trained to do. Like a damned salivating dog.

	09-11-2003 18:43									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The thing which annoys me about patriotism is the fact that it is basically conditioned into people, like Pavlov's dogs. That feeling you get when you see your flag and the national anthem. It's nothing magical. It's just your brain pumping a load of feel-good chemicals into your blood. Like it has been trained to do. Like a damned salivating dog.

Nicely put.

	09-11-2003 19:29									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman That feeling you get when you see your flag and the national anthem. It's nothing magical. It's just your brain pumping a load of feel-good chemicals into your blood. Like it has been trained to do. Like a damned salivating dog.

Whenever I hear the national anthem, I always end up feeling annoyed...

...I don't even remember it, but when I hear it, I recognize it...

	09-11-2003 19:56									#102
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Nationalism ain't good. But it sure is better than caring for oneself, and not trying to improve the world as much as possible.

	09-11-2003 20:10									#103
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quote: That feeling you get when you see your flag and the national anthem. It's nothing magical. It's just your brain pumping a load of feel-good chemicals into your blood. Like it has been trained to do. Like a damned salivating dog.

quote: But it sure is better than caring for oneself, and not trying to improve the world as much as possible.

One can do both. Indeed, because I am not nationalistic or patriotic, I am more inclined to care for others beyond that fallacious distinction.

	09-11-2003 21:15									#104
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hell no.

nationalism is stupid

	09-11-2003 21:42									#105
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no, but i love my country.

	09-11-2003 22:10									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy

how very 'cool'. The same goes for love, knowledge, and every beautiful feeling you know.

quote: One can do both. Indeed, because I am not nationalistic or patriotic, I am more inclined to care for others beyond that fallacious distinction.

nah, bull. Since we mostly live in our countries, the surrounding we can care for are usually people from our cultures, and societies.

The more people you simpathize with, and care for, the better. Ideally, it's better for that group to be the whole of humanity. But to care for 'your people' is better than not to really care for anyone. 'the nation' is nothing more than the people that are it's members.

If humans will once truly unite, on the basis of progress, and prosperity, I'll be a human nationalist.

	09-11-2003 22:25									#107
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I love America and the freedoms it has, but it has a past riddled with conflict, oppression, persecution, and genocide. The Founding Fathers, by today's standards, weren't by any means champions of liberty and human rights for all. But regardless, their fight for independence paved the way for the society that I live in today and the peace and freedom I enjoy.

The American way of life isn't perfect, but Americans have tried as hard as they can to create a fair society. We still have a long way to go, but I believe positive progressive change is inevitable as we weed out the abuses of capitalism and find a proper balance between social good and market driven economics.

I feel great joy when at a sporting event and the national anthem is played. I have a personal pride for the nation I was born in and that's why I get so passionate when I see it's great name and power corrupted.

Freedom, prosperity, social empathy and compassion, equality, and justice are the ideals that I am proud of and that I will fight for. As long as America stands for this, I shall be a patriot.

Each person has their own personal relationship with their country and their own definition of what it means to be a patriot. I still maintain, the most deplorable insult is to accuse someone of being unpatriotic because of a difference in political views or opinions on policy. A true patriot doesn't form such divides and conflicts. A true patriot stands united behind the ideals of freedom and democracy and strives to work out such differences in a civil way.

	09-11-2003 22:39									#108
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You're going to have to make me pick a country before I can be patriotic about it.

Canada's a great place to live. I love Toronto. I'm glad of the fact that I got the chance to live in a country that believes in such things as democracy, human rights, and society. I picked up a lot from living in Canada but I'm not Canadian. Nix patriotism on that one.

I'm not the biggest fan of America in the world but I've got to acknowledge that I do owe it for shaping certain qualities I have. Strip away the chest-thumping bravado and go back to core beliefs. Back to the Founding Fathers were aiming for before human imperfections got in the way. An instinctive trust of democracy and distaste of tyranny, the idea that the People are the only mandate an authority figure should be able to call upon, and the idea that sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands to change things for the better. Yet I'm not American, so no patriotism here.

I thoroughly enjoy my life in the UK and can see myself settling down and living here. I was born here. I'm a British citizen (not a subject!). Yet do I love it? I love it's eccentricities, it's slightly mad way of doing things. I love it's cities and large parts of it's culture. Would I happily march off to die for it? No. Do I think it's the best place in the world? Nope. It's a nice place to live and I feel at home here but that's not patriotism.

Wherever I am, I seperate the good from the bad and love the good. I try to learn and improve in each new setting, each country, and bring past lessons to bear to improve them in turn. People I care about are scattered across the world and so I care about the world.

I am the cat who walks by himself and all places are alike to me.

	10-11-2003 01:10									#109
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I'm not in the sense that i still question my rulers, don't think anyone is better just because their British, and will probably end up living in a different nation. However I do want the England team to win in sports, and I do feel pride whenever I see something British doing well in another country. I'm partly patriotic, but not blinded by it.

	10-11-2003 01:15									#110
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quote: However I do want the England team to win in sports, and I do feel pride whenever I see something British doing well in another country.

Fascist pig.

	10-11-2003 01:46									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The thing which annoys me about patriotism is the fact that it is basically conditioned into people, like Pavlov's dogs. That feeling you get when you see your flag and the national anthem. It's nothing magical. It's just your brain pumping a load of feel-good chemicals into your blood. Like it has been trained to do. Like a damned salivating dog.

Exacto!!!

	10-11-2003 01:51									#112
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Odin, read my response to this. this is hardly an argument.

The bad things in nationalism are:
- it is used to divert attention from other things, and manipulated by the elites.
- Some forms of it claim that other people are inherently inferior.

	10-11-2003 02:59									#113
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I don't have much more to add but one thing.

You may not believe in things like countries and cultures, but there are bad people who do. And they are willing to sacrifice their life to take yours.

Now I suppose if we were idealistic and had no "western" culture the terrorists wouldn't be so adamant about destroying the western culture. The terrorists would stop their evil ways and lead productive lives.

	10-11-2003 08:22									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy A country may be a pretty, alluring fallacy that we have all been brought up to love and serve [cough] diss [/cough], but it is a fallacy nonetheless

You mean countries don't exist?

	10-11-2003 09:09									#115
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For once, I agree with UR.

	10-11-2003 10:35									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild You're going to have to make me pick a country before I can be patriotic about it.

My how society changes -- now we window shop for a country we want to be patriotic towards.

	10-11-2003 11:39									#117
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yes

but I don't always agree with my governement

Jon Miler

	10-11-2003 18:09									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel how very 'cool'. The same goes for love, knowledge, and every beautiful feeling you know.

What, no one's replied to this yet? Love, knowledge, and 'other feelings' (since when was knowledge an emotion?) are not pavlovian.

	10-11-2003 19:17									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I very poor student. I love America. I want come America. Help. Send money. I very poor.

Tell 'em you've got oil. They'll be over by the boatload. Saves you travelling anywhere.

It is WELL NIGH IMPOSSIBLE to be British and patriotic. It's like being a virgin and pregnant - one state cancels out the other.

Add to this my Welsh, Scottish, Irish, English and Inuit genes, and you can see why being patriotic towards a part of the Union Jack is similarly impossible.

I look up to the ideals of the country, but I just can't ignore some of the evils we have begat on the world.