12-11-2003 22:59									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Plotinus Panag, no offence intended - I just think that there are a few contenders from history who might have stronger claims to inclusion than Israel. You are right to highlight longevity as a good trait though. One problem here is that the game doesn't model the conquest of one civilisation by another followed by independence (like India being conquered by Britain but subsequently becoming its own nation again - and Israel being conquered by all kinds of people before becoming an independent country in the twentieth century). After all, Israel hasn't existed continuously as a political unit since its foundation. The only major civilisation I can think of that has done so since extreme antiquity is China. There are quite a few in the same sort of position as Israel (ancient foundation, conquest by foreign invaders, modern reinstatement), such as Greece, Egypt, and, perhaps, many African nations, although they tend to share nothing with their ancient or medieval predecessors apart from their names. Another disconnected ramble about the problems of mapping real history in CivIII turns, for which I apologise... as I say, no belittling of Israel intended...

hi ,

look your statement about being not there as a political body , ones again you are wrong , then you start to mix things , panag never highlighted any trait , .......

so , please , cut this stuff and either move it to the OT or post on topic , .....

bye

	12-11-2003 23:25									#32
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I would like to see the "smaller" civs in the game...or even the civs like have lost and regained independence (India) for two reasons:

1. Scenarios
2. The enternal "What If..."

IMHO, that is what Civ is all about. What if Israel had taken the entire Fertile Crescent and expanded its empire in 2000 BC? What if China succumed to the Mongol hoards and became a province of Mongolia? Interesting!

I think I would pay for an optional expansion mod that would include 10-12 new civs, complete with leaderheads, that could be used if swapped out a la Austria in C3C (to stay under the 31 civ limit).

	13-11-2003 01:08									#33
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I think the top candidates for unincluded civs to balance out a world map would be the Mali, Ethiopia, the Songhai (and include the Zulus with those into an "African" cultural group).

Then include a Polynesian civ in the Asian group and a "Hebrew" or "Israeli" civiliation into the Middle Eastern culture group. Beyond that, perhaps Tibet, perhaps rename the current Iroquois the Souix and make an additional real Iroquois, Cherokee, or other eastern American civilization with an appropriate UU (likely an archer replacement or a scout replacement like the Inca UU).

	13-11-2003 01:19									#34
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , and voila , proof ones more that it can be done , ....... have a nice day

I missed the part where I said the Phoenician position "couldn't be done", there, champ. I said "You may not care for their starting position" and comparatively to others growth-wise, the Phoenicians are one of the poorer civs. Yes, they get the Cedars, but they're also set right against several civs with better growth potential and effectively are set with no wall to put their back against in regards to war.

I assure you, part of the reason I got the title sitting in my signature is that I know it can be done. :P

	13-11-2003 02:16									#35
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Personally, I prefer my Psitalon baked - not fried...

	13-11-2003 02:31									#36
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Hmm... I've heard it is even better broiled.

	13-11-2003 02:33									#37
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Drop by the ladder sometime, fellas. You wouldn't be the first to smash yourselves up on the walls. You might even stay and become a regular, too. We're always happy to have new and friendly faces around, and there's a full range of game styles (epic, quickie, conquest, team, ffa, you name it) and skills to go around.

	13-11-2003 08:34									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I think the top candidates for unincluded civs to balance out a world map would be the Mali, Ethiopia, the Songhai (and include the Zulus with those into an "African" cultural group).

I don't think they should add civs to "balance out a world map". From what I understand, most people play random maps, not Earth maps. Although, getting civs from all across the globe does mean more cultural diversity, which I do suppport.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos ...perhaps rename the current Iroquois the Souix and make an additional real Iroquois, Cherokee, or other eastern American civilization with an appropriate UU (likely an archer replacement or a scout replacement like the Inca UU).

I agree. I don't know why thay chose the UU they did for the Iroquois. A 3/1/1 archer replacement (for instance) would've been more appropriate for them.

	13-11-2003 10:23									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 You can have the Vikings, Germans, and French all at the same time, without the "they're-all-blue-so-only-one-at-a-time" problem.

It was always astonishing to me that they chose to have the French and Germans as the same color, thus they could never be together in a game... I mean...wtf?!

I'm thoroughly impressed with Civ3's roster, but I see some omissions still, such as Assyria, the Marmeluks, the Sassanids, Mali, Poland-Lithuania, the Slavs, etc.

	13-11-2003 10:25									#40
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , put them on el mencey's world map , 362 X 362 , can be found in the apolyton directory have a nice day

And be sure to go and make yourself a cup of coffee or perhaps a whole meal while you wait in between turns.

	13-11-2003 10:29									#41
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Oh, and I despise the notions of "deserving" and "undeserving" civilizations. Who the hell is anyone to deem some civilization "undeserving?" I remember the furor over the inclusion of the Iroquois by some. Their logic would dictate no Native Americans be represented at all. Why should the game exclude representing a people who by most estimates numbered 100 million in 1492?

One can make the case almost any civilization is worthy or not based on subjective criteria, after all.

	13-11-2003 11:50									#42
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I demand the inclusion of the Redneck civ!

C'mon! These guys are a huge subgroup of Americans, and I'm sure every nation has their own sub-derivative of this group as well.

With trash overflowing onto every inch of land they own, they are clearly an expansionist power, and you will never find a redneck who isn't a great believer in God and Country, so this is clearly a religious civ as well! Arabia, beware your rival!

Everyone would fear the UU known as the "Lawn Mower Brigade" with an awesome 5 attack, 5 defense, 2 movement, capable of chopping down forests and polluting land at no movement cost every turn, available with motorized transportation, buildable with grapes and wheat! (For balance issues we have removed their ability to shoot/destroy game and cow squares.)

This is a perfectly good example of a well-qualified civilizaton, and I DEMAND they be included! They are a huge subsection of multiple cultures, and their awesome contributions to folk music and daytime talkshows cannot be denied!

YEEEEEHAW!

	13-11-2003 12:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon With trash overflowing onto every inch of land they own, they are clearly an expansionist power, and you will never find a redneck who isn't a great believer in God and Country, so this is clearly a religious civ as well! Arabia, beware your rival!

Is Fried describing his playstyle?

	13-11-2003 12:39									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And be sure to go and make yourself a cup of coffee or perhaps a whole meal while you wait in between turns.

Cup of coffee? whoa... you must have a fast computer! On my AMD XP 2800, I can make breakfast, eat it, take a shower and shave between each turn...

	13-11-2003 13:39									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon I demand the inclusion of the Redneck civ! C'mon! These guys are a huge subgroup of Americans, and I'm sure every nation has their own sub-derivative of this group as well. With trash overflowing onto every inch of land they own, they are clearly an expansionist power, and you will never find a redneck who isn't a great believer in God and Country, so this is clearly a religious civ as well! Arabia, beware your rival! Everyone would fear the UU known as the "Lawn Mower Brigade" with an awesome 5 attack, 5 defense, 2 movement, capable of chopping down forests and polluting land at no movement cost every turn, available with motorized transportation, buildable with grapes and wheat! (For balance issues we have removed their ability to shoot/destroy game and cow squares.) This is a perfectly good example of a well-qualified civilizaton, and I DEMAND they be included! They are a huge subsection of multiple cultures, and their awesome contributions to folk music and daytime talkshows cannot be denied! YEEEEEHAW!

Ah yes, and their famous leader Billy-Bob-Sue-Bubba III

	13-11-2003 18:39									#46
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quote: Originally posted by SirOsis Is Fried describing his playstyle?

Pshaw, sir, my play style is more "Industrial/Agricultural" or perhaps "Industrial/Military." I build less temples than an Atheist's society meeting until Monotheism rolls around, maybe later.

You ought to see the border-pops I get with the Temple of Artemis, looks like someone set a bomb off in my territory and blew my borders outwards.

	13-11-2003 21:45									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And be sure to go and make yourself a cup of coffee or perhaps a whole meal while you wait in between turns.

hi ,

not on this side , .......

have a nice day

	13-11-2003 21:54									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon I demand the inclusion of the Redneck civ! C'mon! These guys are a huge subgroup of Americans, and I'm sure every nation has their own sub-derivative of this group as well. With trash overflowing onto every inch of land they own, they are clearly an expansionist power, and you will never find a redneck who isn't a great believer in God and Country, so this is clearly a religious civ as well! Arabia, beware your rival! Everyone would fear the UU known as the "Lawn Mower Brigade" with an awesome 5 attack, 5 defense, 2 movement, capable of chopping down forests and polluting land at no movement cost every turn, available with motorized transportation, buildable with grapes and wheat! (For balance issues we have removed their ability to shoot/destroy game and cow squares.) This is a perfectly good example of a well-qualified civilizaton, and I DEMAND they be included! They are a huge subsection of multiple cultures, and their awesome contributions to folk music and daytime talkshows cannot be denied! YEEEEEHAW!

hilarious.

I think the debate is settled. With all due respect to FeePhi and SirOsis, Fried-Psitalon will remain "fried", not broiled nor baked, in honor of his new redneck civ!

	14-11-2003 00:29									#49
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Well if we are going to go with the Redneck civ we should flesh it out a bit more.

I think that if a tile is polluted that the Redneck civ can use it with no loss of productivity.

A new wonder: The Daytona 500. Makes 3 unhappy citizens happy on the same contintent.

City improvement: Brewery. resource required Aluminum.

	14-11-2003 01:11									#50
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Yes, and rather than build a Hospital to get past size 12, they build a trailer park instead

	14-11-2003 01:15									#51
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Replace the volcano with a tornado targetting your trailer park...oh wait, that's Sim City, sorry.

	14-11-2003 01:20									#52
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Yes, when a volcano erupts, thousands of rednecks die, thus you should get a culture bonus for this happening

	14-11-2003 01:42									#53
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You could make up a new government:

"Gummint"

Corruption: problematic
MP: 1, maybe 2?
Worker Rate: 50%
Draft rate: 1
Unit Support: 2/2/3
Rush: cash rush
Xenophobic
Gov't specific small wonders: Coors Brewery, NASCAR, WWF (or whatever they changed their name to)



-Arrian

	14-11-2003 02:03									#54
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The draft rate should be higher due to everyone already owning a shotgun and rifle.

	14-11-2003 02:08									#55
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Good point. Perhaps another gov't specific building: National Rifle Association? This could turn out a new footslogger type unit every 5 turns.

-Arrian

	14-11-2003 03:10									#56
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All drafted units would start as veterans; these guys are out shooting deer every weekend, after all.

	14-11-2003 03:23									#57
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Nah, real redneck hunters are the ones who manage to shot themselves or their fellow hunters. Conscripts for sure.

-Arrian

	14-11-2003 03:38									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Ah yes, and their famous leader Billy-Bob-Sue-Bubba III

Uhmm... for Rednecks shouldn't that be Billy-Bob-Sue-Bubba Junior Junior?

	16-11-2003 03:35									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Replace the volcano with a tornado targetting your trailer park...oh wait, that's Sim City, sorry.

hi ,

well it would be nice to see clouds and waves ones in a while in civ , ......

" sorry sir , no air cover over the jungle today due to mist "

" sorry sir , our ships cant sail cause they are undergoing reppair after the last storm "

" sorry sir , due to a severe thunderstorm our unit in air transport was lost "

etc , ......

have a nice day

	16-11-2003 03:57									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 I concur. Israel may be a "small" culture by the standards of the more mundane historians, but if you account for the effect they've had on almost all the other world civilizations, their influence is tremendous! For example, the Christian religion/culture which represents a large portion of the global population can be traced back to one spectacular Jew, Jesus of Nazareth. Look at how many people value the Bible/Tanakh as a holy book! Also not to mention the important role of Judaism, as well as the fact that through the Diaspora, Jews are virtually omnipresent in the world today. Though I can see the point in Civ3 of not being able to accurately represent all of these things in a game, I would still like to see some Israelites. Perhaps in some future expansion, if we're lucky.

I wanted to have some Israelites as well, but its not P.C......

Every empire has dialouge that makes it look bad(mean/nasty)-they are afraid people would complain about it being antisemetic..... even though it isnt, and yes im Jewish and I want an Israeli civilization