16-01-2004 00:22									#31
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Well... there is another option I've been thinking on. RP can use Magellan, it triggers their GA if I'm not mistaken. And we don't really need it ourselves, we just have to prevent others to get it.

DeepO

	16-01-2004 00:25									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Magellan's... ack. If we feel it's a strategic necessity, we need to make Hurricane's Copernicus prebuild into Magellan's (and Tempest can do Cop's). Seriously, I think that's probably the only hope of getting it. The key to our defense will most likely be a line of fortified (for the extra tile vision) picket ships. They will be our late-industrial age Grog. If one or more of them disappear, we know we have incoming. -Arrian

Them's a lot of ships

	16-01-2004 01:06									#33
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Magellan's would not trigger RP's GA all by itself. It is commercial, but they must also satisfy the relgious requirement. I suppose they could build the Oracle

But seriously, folks, where do you think RP is going to get 400 (?) shields of production from?

quote: Them's a lot of ships

Aye, matey.

-Arrian

	16-01-2004 02:29									#34
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We could build Magellan and give it to them for a turn. I've been looking at Bolderburg in this respect. With a lot of wf shuffling with neigbours who'd lose production, we can get 16spt = 25 turn Magellan.

The good thing about BB is that there's no culture there. We get it back perfecto.

	16-01-2004 02:35									#35
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Of course, we'd have to get Navigation which shoots up the ToE plan somewhat. No-one has Nav yet, and we're assuming that Lego are using their Palace on the Smith's build.

	16-01-2004 02:41									#36
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Smith might be our save here...Nav is optional, and if Vox goes for demo, who would go for it? ND and GoW both would be better off with the road to Mil Trad. RP is the perfect ally for this: they can probably get a prebuild timed so that it finishes in 40 turns... exactly the time needed for them to get Nav. (but before I'm more embarrased here, I don't have a clue if they have all the prereqs yet).

If Lego goes for Smith (and it's very likely they will), they don't need Magellan, and will be better of going full steam towards the ToE. And If RP can start now, they should finish 2 or 3 turns before Vox can get it if they somehow wouldn't go for demo. There's no guarantee, but I see a possible opening here.

After that, let them build the oracle if that's what it takes to get them into GA.

DeepO

	16-01-2004 02:49									#37
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RP'll do well to get 10spt in a coastal city. Maybe Santa Barbara (ex Wittlich) but that's 3 squares from Port Isolation.

	16-01-2004 02:56									#38
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As this is the Grand Strategy thread, we could do well to consider what role Lego sees for Vox.

Specifically - why did they save them? Some, all, or any of the following?

1. To fill unproductive land with a friendly neighbout to keep settler builds and OCN down.

2. To be able to trigger their GA as a last resort.

3. To vote for them in the UN

4. To be an economic ally - as we see RP.

	16-01-2004 04:29									#39
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All of the above, most likely.

1. not so because they needed the land filled, but because GoW was exploring their coast, and already settled an island closeby. Even if they had a no-landing clause, not having to worry about those opportunists is better.

5. Other reason Lego has claimed all along is that there were loads of barbs on Lego Minor... how that would be a bad thing I fail to grasp (although there are a lot of mountains, we are playing at chieftain here which is a 400(?)% bonus against barbs)

6. public opinion. Saving Vox from us would make them look good. I think we offset that by helping Vox to leave, and giving them time to build 7 settlers and loads of workers in the mean time.

DeepO

	16-01-2004 04:34									#40
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CH, if things go well, they will have steam at the end, so they might manage with 9 spt... and what's the problem with Santa Barbara? The more culture that city has, the better... it's next to their captital, and IIRC can culturally pressure Port Isolation. Defense wise it won't matter, as once Marines are near, all cities need to be defended.

Which reminds me: could you include with your next screenshots a culture shot? We should warn RP that SB needs a garrison to prevent it from flipping... I'll calculate how much they need. We should not retract our troops before RP is able to set the flipping chance to 0% for that city...

DeepO

	16-01-2004 19:14									#41
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We need to consider, as TS has reminded us, how me might react, or not, to the collapse of the Trojka and possible war either between Logo and the Bobians, or between the Bobians themselves.

Given these are hypotheticals, we still have our own goal which we've defined - to try for the ToE and Hoover, and bagging what we can out of Magellans, Copernicus, and Newton.

For Magellans - should we go for it, or should RP? Bolderb*rg can do it in about 40 turns, which is when RP will discover Navigation.

	16-01-2004 19:54									#42
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How long for Magellans in Hurricane?

-Arrian

	16-01-2004 19:57									#43
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quote: We need to consider, as TS has reminded us, how me might react, or not, to the collapse of the Trojka and possible war either between Logo and the Bobians, or between the Bobians themselves.

We just disbanded a fair amount of our transport capacity. Plus, if we were to become directly involved militarily, we would be drawing units from our sea wall.

I think our involvement will be limited to who we do an do not trade with. Yes, that gives us less impact on the outcome. But our means are limited. We used a lot of strength trying to influence the last war.

-Arrian

	16-01-2004 22:56									#44
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What could be done if ND & GoW had a war? I doubt that either will be inviting anyone to aid them, until it is nearly too late.
They have to know the worse thing for them is for Lego or GS to get another foothold on Bob.

If we jumped in it would be very hard to get and hold land against the victor. If you take action to do damage to either, it will help Lego more than anyone.

It seems to me the best bet is a three on one and it makes more sense for it to be against Lego. If it was against us, they help Lego. If it is against Lego, they do not hurt themself and could get more out of it than we do, but we would have to join or be left out.

I am presuming that ND and GoW are a locked alliance, they have to be to win.

In a scenario were all go after Lego ND and GoW would have to think they could come out ahead of us.

The best case for Bobians is that Lego comes for us on their own and soon. Then the Bobians could hit Lego at home. This would put Lego in a real bind.

	17-01-2004 09:26									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian How long for Magellans in Hurricane? -Arrian

About 20.

If switched from a uni, Arashi can actually get to Copernicus before Hurricane.

	17-01-2004 09:33									#46
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Only problem though, is we can't give Hurricane to Spain for a turn (before they complete a religious wonder) without losing a pile of investment.

	18-01-2004 04:26									#47
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I think it's worth the gamble going for Copernicus in Hurricane - the Colossus being there makes Copernicus that much more effective, and we need to get the very best use out of every tile that we can to remain in this game now.

	18-01-2004 05:27									#48
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ditto to both nye's and vulture's comments about Hurricane. Also, we'd have to research Navigation ourselves. With that, plus missing out on the Colossus-Copernicus combo, our target of 60 turns to ToE would be delayed. That target doesn't include Industrialisation either.