09-11-2003 08:17									#31
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The number may be inflated, but the fact remains that SH's direct orders/actions killed a HUGE number of people and these mass graves are proof of it.

And, btw, the fact that evidently the US has killed a good number of Iraqis (a number which, of course, is also inflated) in no way excuses SH's greater responsibility for his crimes (and, if you want to be strict, neither do SH's crimes excuse the USA's either).

	09-11-2003 08:18									#32
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So Saddam had to kill thousands to crush an American backed, then withdrawn Shiite uprising?

300,000 has been the number for a long time. It is not any kind of new news. It is the biggest number out of the pro-war camp, so it is obviouslty inflated, (like everything else they say) beyond recognition.

Imagine an uprising of fundamentalist muslims in the U.S., I wonder how well they would do?

	09-11-2003 08:37									#33
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quote: Originally posted by JCG The number may be inflated, but the fact remains that SH's direct orders/actions killed a HUGE number of people and these mass graves are proof of it.

Yeah, Saddam had to kill people that the US encouraged to rebel and the US even stood by and let him do it...

Saddam pulled the trigger, but who was responsible for setting the rebellion in motion and letting Saddam deal with the consequences...

You Pro-War people are so shortsighted and hypocritical, it's not even fun proving you wrong about this stuff - it's just very, very sad...

	09-11-2003 08:54									#34
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS You Pro-War people are so shortsighted and hypocritical, it's not even fun proving you wrong about this stuff - it's just very, very sad...

So now I'm supposed to be Pro-War?

Yes, it is very, very sad to see you being so defensive and jumping to conclusions in such a sloppy (or actually, selective) manner.

	09-11-2003 09:11									#35
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quote: Originally posted by JCG So now I'm supposed to be Pro-War? Yes, it is very, very sad to see you being so defensive and jumping to conclusions in such a sloppy (or actually, selective) manner.

My, that was a sloppy bit of collateral damage wasn't it?

I apologise for seeing only the first part and not reading that last bracketed part which would, generally speaking, be a far too reasonable thing for a Pro-War person to say...

	09-11-2003 09:15									#36
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Who cares? I don't. MOBIUS doesn't either beyond whatever cheap political point he can troll out of it.

	09-11-2003 09:24									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Who cares? I don't. MOBIUS doesn't either beyond whatever cheap political point he can troll out of it.

Sez you!?

You don't know what you're talking about, and you know that because in the last god-knows-how-long I don't think I can ever remember you actually posting anything actually approaching an opinion - you used to before you changed your handle from, was it Tyrant Lizard King? But then you used to get reamed on a regular basis - which is probably why you changed your name in the 1st place...

Guess you decided to cut your losses and stick to lurking till you can post a snide little remark from the sidelines...

	09-11-2003 09:30									#38
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See. He doesn't even bother to form a real response to the post and only resorts to cheap and quite frankly idiotic attacks on myself. Not that he could considering the fact his posts here prove my point more than anything he can say in his defense.

BTW: What's the point of this thread other than to remind us that running a dictatorship requires getting your hands dirty? Even if there were a million people in those graves, how would that justify using force to remove the previous regime?

	09-11-2003 09:40									#39
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quote: Blatant violation of international law.

Wrong, as has been proven innumerable times.

	09-11-2003 09:41									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS But then you used to get reamed on a regular basis - which is probably why you changed your name in the 1st place...

I've changed my name several times so I can understand why it might be hard for the slow witted to keep up but this is my original name.

	09-11-2003 09:44									#41
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Even if true, war is still not justified.

	09-11-2003 09:47									#42
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I just discovered something - by putting MOBIUS on my ignore list, this thread doesn't look half as stupid!

	09-11-2003 09:47									#43
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this war wasn't fought on humanitarian grounds. if it were, that's what the explanation would have been in the months leading up to war.

we'd've also been in many other places.

does no-one remember that bush was once adamantly opposed to nation-building?

	09-11-2003 10:15									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed does no-one remember that bush was once adamantly opposed to nation-building?

He still is!

	09-11-2003 13:13									#45
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: Blatant violation of international law. Wrong, as has been proven innumerable times.

You mean a country can invade another arbitrarily?

	09-11-2003 13:26									#46
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The mass graves are not so much a justification for the war in the first place as a justification for not pulling out. Restoring Saddam to power will likely result in a bloodbath that would make earlier bloodbaths small details by comparison.

Bush I deserves heavy criticism for withdrawing and allowing Saddam to murder so many. It is surprising that the same people who criticize Bush I for allowing Saddam to stay in power are critical of Bush II for ending his murderous regime regardless of whether that was the official reason for the war.

And, JohnC, you are especially amazing for arguing that restoring Saddam to power is the thing to do because he will now not kill so many people. This kind of thinking is simply stunning.

	09-11-2003 13:31									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Bush I deserves heavy criticism for withdrawing and allowing Saddam to murder so many. It is surprising that the same people who criticize Bush I for allowing Saddam to stay in power are critical of Bush II for ending his murderous regime regardless of whether that was the official reason for the war.

You people don't belong there. Stop thinking that you are the solution to the problem you created. Get out!

	09-11-2003 15:57									#48
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Mobius you still have absolutley ZERO clue what you are talking about

There were 2600 US Marines sent Liberia who were there until the Nigerian force arrived, to cover in case sh1t REALLY hit the fan

You should also read up on your own history, did you KNOW that the UK is a Constitutional Monarchy? Oh my you are so ignorant!!! LEARN SOMETHIN!!!!!

Next time make sure to take some Ritalin and stop getting your heart broken by American girls

Last edited by Ted Striker on 09-11-2003 at 16:15

	09-11-2003 16:22									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It is surprising that the same people who criticize Bush I for allowing Saddam to stay in power are critical of Bush II for ending his murderous regime regardless of whether that was the official reason for the war.

actually this is not the point. the point is that in view of the closer circumstances of the 1991-massacre the so-called humanitarian intentions of the current US goverment are highly questioned. BushI, Cheney and Rumsfeld didnīt care for the shiites as long as they were alive. itīs hard to believe, that they seriously do care more now, after these people have been murdered.
no one doubts that Saddam was a cruel and totalitarian ruler. but the US goverment has forfeited this as an pro-war argument, itīs simply not credible.

with the same justification I could hire a contract killer and shoot him after he has done the dirty job, because he was an evil murderer. Iīd like to see the jury who would buy that stuff and set me free.

	09-11-2003 17:10									#50
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WTF? Is Congo still grounds of active fighting and murdering? I thought they already stopped it and are still in bad shape.. but its still going on?

Damn it, we need to get our planes in the air!

	09-11-2003 17:21									#51
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quote: Originally posted by JCG The number may be inflated, but the fact remains that SH's direct orders/actions killed a HUGE number of people and these mass graves are proof of it.

Hm, some human rights orgs. gave (before GWII) numbers from 500000 - 1000000 victims in Iraq since Saddam came to power.

	09-11-2003 17:25									#52
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some also accredit the U.S. for over 500,000 starvation and disease deaths caused by the sanctions.

Both, I assume, are grossly inflated. I mean, we could concievably say almost 1,000 people have been killed every year from political pressure under the Bush and Clinton administrations, it would just be what you considered "killed".

	09-11-2003 17:40									#53
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Well, Saddam took over in the late 60ies, and whatever one thinks about this war, he clearly wasnīt a nice guy. His campaign eg. against the Kurds was extremely brutal, not only due to the use of chemical weapons. Similar brutality is known in other aspects of the Saddam regime eg. the treatment of opposition groups etc.

And those orgs I mentioned include AI and HRW, which are not interested in making a case against Saddam for the Bush administration. They do however admit that a lot of those numbers are estimations, of course, but there can be no doubt that it was not a soft dictatorship in Iraq under Saddam.

	09-11-2003 19:54									#54
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how many people died in South Asia during the US involvement there? 3 million?

Saddam's a lightweight.

	09-11-2003 19:56									#55
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quote: You mean a country can invade another arbitrarily?

No, but 1441 allowed us to.

	09-11-2003 19:58									#56
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: You mean a country can invade another arbitrarily? No, but 1441 allowed us to.

read the language... it said "serious consequences"... that's it. It did not allow for an invasion, that's why a second resolution detailing invasion plans was suggested, but never submitted because Bush failed miserably at diplomacy and getting our Allies to support the war.

	09-11-2003 20:01									#57
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IIRC, MtG said that that technically allowed us to invade. If you want to debate the fine points of international law with him, be my guest...

	09-11-2003 20:06									#58
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker IIRC, MtG said that that technically allowed us to invade. If you want to debate the fine points of international law with him, be my guest...

too bad MtG isn't a member of the UN...

	09-11-2003 20:54									#59
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker IIRC, MtG said that that technically allowed us to invade. If you want to debate the fine points of international law with him, be my guest...

Have you ever, ever in your life stopped for a moment and thought "I wonder what the use of international law is"

And then thought "How can war have laws, if the winner makes the rules?"

The only power international law has is to form international opinion. America may be able to make a great case to some panel of U.N. judges with hundreds of lawyers specializing in international law. But if in the eyes of public opinion, the United States is causing unwarranted aggression, we are wrong.

So there are really only two sides to this argument:

1) We cares about international law or
2) Who cares about international law?

One entails abiding by the laws and attempting to prevent war crimes, but this is purely for show, for diplomatic brownie points. There are no real victories in this war determined by lawyers. All that matters is public perception, since realistically, that is all these resolutions can do.

Two, entails Just doing it. So if you were to try and agrue that 1441 gave you the legal right, you have been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion. This is not the good option, because you have lost. So your only other option is to call the U.N. irrelevant, say you are above international law, and invade anyways. But sitting their and trying to lawyer out how 1441 authorized war when clearly France threatened to veto the true authorization for war, is laughable.

	09-11-2003 20:54									#60
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Is there anyone participating in this thread not holding the following opinons?

1- The Ba'athists were, and remain, utterly monstrous by any sane standards.

2- That we should have finished them in 1991.

3- That it's one less genocidal regime on the face of this planet.