13-11-2003 12:41									#61
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I guess that's settled, then.

	13-11-2003 12:41									#62
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quote: The confusion arises because there's no differentiation in English between the two, though in fact they are very different from each other and should have separate names in English, as they do in Chinese.

So you were aware of that, but still made the statement that it wasn't a religion. Why would you, if you were confused?

	13-11-2003 15:11									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Off-topic, insulting, and severely mistaken on several different counts. Wow. Capitalism is existent as a separate system from communism, just like the more moderate forms of socialism. It's mostly mentioned in the context of Communism debates because the rest of us don't object to it, but capitalism is just as "real" as communism.

Oh I agree that Capitalism is just as real as Communism, in fact it is real and Communism isn't in terms of being a definable and workable economic system as opposed to being a Utopian idea for an economic system that has never worked beyond the clan level. What I'm saying is that Capitalism hardly needed a name before Communism came along and set itself up as the mortal enemy of "Capitalism". Oxford's Dictionary simply describes Capitalism as private ownership of Trade and Industry, which are hardly revolutionary. Both predate the existence of the state. So Capitalism is the default state for both Trade and Industry, an intrusive state with the will and means to own Industries and conduct Trade being a necessary additional factor in order for any other system to exist.

When Communism came along the term Capitalism wasn't used all that much. Sure there were people who were beginning to see the value in as pure a Capitalist system as possible, but even that idea was fairly new and not necessarily widely held. Communists held Communism to be a viable alternative to Capitalism, an alter ego. This makes some sense in that Communism is one alternative to the private ownership of economic entities, but the choice for the individual is a false one in that Communism is not a choice for those who do not also control the government, while Capitalism is still possible for individuals in any system, even where there is no government.

This is where the comparison between Christianity and Communism comes in. Christians generally also believe in a binary system. You are either a Christian and aligned with God and all that is right or you are not, in which case you are aligned with the Devil (whether you are aware of it, or simply misled by the Prince of Lies) and all that is evil. No other possiblities exist according to doctrine. Both Christianity and Communism are "you are either with us or against us" doctrines, which is a great way of fueling conflict with others as a means of reinforcing the cohesion of your own group. These sorts of ideologies are great for growth through conquest, which both Christianity and Communism used to develop the majority of their power.

quote: Originally posted by Elok And while Satan is a Christian concept, to suggest that satanists are a mythological subset of our faith is ludicrous. They're a reactionary group that exists for shock value, but they do exist outside of Jack Chick tracts in thankfully small numbers.

I agree that Satanism is a reactionary group, but it is most certainly a subset of the Christain faith. It only exists where Christianity exists, and the vast majority of its adherents are former Christians or were raised as Christians. Of course many Christians themselves assume that any belief outside of standard Christianity is simply Satanism, whether the believers are simply misled or are purposefully obtuse about their alignment with the Damned (depending on which Christian you ask). If I were one of these people I suppose that I would be glad that at least a few of those doomed to spend eternity with Satan in hell have the courage to admit it.

The annoying thing for me, and probably almost anyone who isn't a Christian or a Muslim, is that there is no alternative in Christian doctrine for those who truly believe in an alternative that doesn't have them aligned with evil in the eyes of their neighbors. This isn't that much of a problem for those who live where Christians or Muslims are few and far between, as they are unlikely to suffer the persecutions and insults that are the natural product of this sort of dogma, but for much of the world this simply isn't possible as both Christians and Muslims hold these sorts of beliefs. And Communists too of course, who not only want to tell you how to live your life in the economic sphere, but also demand that you give up religion as well.

	13-11-2003 15:53									#64
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Let's hear it for Yezidism:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/2153/yezidi.html

and Dogon Animism:

http://www.crystalinks.com/dogon.html

'A 'Togu Na' - 'House of Words' - stands in every Dogon village and marks the male social center. The low ceiling, supported by carved or sculptured posts, prevents over zealous discussions from escalating into fights. Symbolic meaning surrounds the Togu Na. On the Gondo Plain, Togu Na pillars are carved out of Kile wood and often express themes of fertility and procreation. Many of the carvings are of women's breasts, for as a Dogon proverb says, "The breast is second only to God." '

	13-11-2003 21:32									#65
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I read that as "Vogon Animism" for a second. I beg you not to start reciting the religious poetry.

	13-11-2003 22:06									#66
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Oh frettled gruntbuggly, thy micturations are to me...