14-11-2003 15:13									#91
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edited ....I don't want to be banned after all.

In other news...the first person ever on my ignore list

	14-11-2003 18:31									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc So the Syrians would somehow magically have the ability to patrol their border with Iraq, better than, say, the U.S. is controlling their border with Mexico?

Caravans of trucks rolling through the official border crossings along the road? Yea, I'd say they could do a much better job. Syria is a police state, run by the same party that controlled Iraq until recently. While I don't doubt that on such a long and empty border that some smuggling gets by them, I also have no doubts that they were actively aiding Saddam's regime.

quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Have there been any proof that the Syrians have actively helped with any crossborder operations I would be interested to see them. I think we are long past the stage where anyone will take the simple word as proof of anything that is coming out of Washington these days. The monopolization of truth has been severely shaken, and that might in fact be a sad thing, but it is hardly the listerners who can be blamed for this tragic turn of events.

Well Washington's line is close to what I have said, while Syria seems to be sweeping everything under the carpet. The border incident where we shot up a Baathist caravan and took several Syrian border guards prisoner seems to have brought the issue to a head. After Powell's visit Syria toned down the rhetoric and the border region has been much quieter as well.

	14-11-2003 18:43									#93
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quote: In other news...the first person ever on my ignore list

oooooh what a shame...











Maybe he should use his "peace" toilet paper-flag and cover his eyes with that, at least it would have some kind of meaning after all

	14-11-2003 18:49									#94
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And maybe you should try to get some professional help

	14-11-2003 18:56									#95
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Get a life

	14-11-2003 19:16									#96
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Datajack, it's useless try to discuss with idiots like laurentius and paikitis who see this tragedy just as a way to attack Berlusconi (i suppose that in a couple of days Sloth will come up telling that Berlusconi planned the attack to gain popularity ) like someone once wrote:

quote: Fama di loro il mondo esser non lassa; misericordia e giustizia li sdegna: non ragioniam di lor, ma guarda e passa.

So let laurentius live in his Finland, continuing to be proud of his ignorance (God, he tried to prove his knowledge of italian things citing Panorama and Monica Bellucci ) with his strange view of the world (He should explain why attack against italians used the same tactic previously used in attacks against Red Cross and ONU: maybe it's because terrorists are trying to avoid Iraqi normalization hitting forces there to help? nooooo, of course it must be because also Red Cross is there for oil!) and honor the sacrifice of our people.

If some people out there still don't understand our pain, well, it's people unworthy of being considered.
(Sorry for the rhetoric but it's exactly as i feel today )

Drake: I've to add that i too think that comparing this tragedy with 9/11 is a bit extreme but certainly not for a numeric reason (it's a very silly reason when you're talking about victims) but simply because our troops knew that the mission was risky while people dead on 9/11 went to work that day as every other day in their offices.

	14-11-2003 19:21									#97
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I thought that calling people "idiots" was not allowed here....
if I'm supposed to begin a flame war tell me so.....

	14-11-2003 19:34									#98
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Ok, if i must be banned then i'm ready to be banned but i won't change the word i used (moderator can and probably will change it if it's the rule).
You know, i've a life out of Poly so being banned won't be a great damage: differently from what you seems to think the tragedy here is another one

	14-11-2003 21:01									#99
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I think one thing should NOT be done.
It's done anyway.
That cause a tragedy.
I say "it should NOT have been done".
then not only I'am an idiot (why?) but you seem to think that I'm glad that the tragedy happed...why?

	14-11-2003 22:09									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Sloth I think one thing should NOT be done. It's done anyway.

What exactly was not to be done? the war? sending our troops there?
I've an incredible news for you: Italy never sent troops during the war, we sent troops after the end of the war, to help stopping the anarchy that was coming out in Iraq, this explains why we sent mainly Carabinieri (trained more as police force than as invasion/assault troops, you're italian, you should know the difference)

quote: Originally posted by Sloth That cause a tragedy. I say "it should NOT have been done". then not only I'am an idiot (why?)

You seem to say: "i was against the war, USA & UK made the war anyway, so USA and UK must solve it without the help of anyone! and this explain why i was against sending our troops there."
But this argument is, IMHHHO, an idiotic (or really unintelligent if you prefer) one: you want to avoid sending help to USA and UK because you're upset with them, but in that way you're simply delaying Iraqi normalization, and who you think that will be harmed by a similar action? Just the Iraqi people.

quote: Originally posted by Sloth but you seem to think that I'm glad that the tragedy happed...why?

Because in the whole thread you didn't spend a single word on deaths.
You started ranting against Datajack because he insulted lefties, then you said that right was trying to use the tragedy to gain popular consensus...
And then you started asking for mod actions on me because, while trying to communicate my feelings, i used a word forbidden on the forum.

I'm sure that you're not glad for what happened (i hope for you at least), but from your posts someone could think that you simply didn't care for the victims but only for the political consequences.

Anyway, continue your political show, it doesn't interest me, not in these days.

	15-11-2003 05:34									#101
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We mourn our dead.
Deep run our wounds.

	15-11-2003 09:06									#102
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quote: I thought that calling people "idiots" was not allowed here....

Of course one has to have very good reasons to do that

Dr. Scotto (lol)

Well, well if it wasn't about time for new, fresh meat on the forums- yahoo

quote: then not only I'am an idiot (why?) but you seem to think that I'm glad that the tragedy happed...why?

Because that's how lefties work- why is Berlusconi responsible for this? Did he start the war? Did he send invasion troops? Did he EVER mentioned Iraq's oil or any kind of italian petroleum company?

And for your information, that comic you posted before (taken from a communist journal, awesome) is definitely of bad taste; even using that ass-wipe peace flag instead of the national flag is another insult to the victims, who are used as propaganda- who cares about the reasons of war, if war was right or not? That day, that picture, this thread are supposed to be about the CASUALTIES- please rant somewhere else

	15-11-2003 16:53									#103
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quote: I thought that calling people "idiots" was not allowed here.... if I'm supposed to begin a flame war tell me so.....

Wow, you really are new...

quote: In other news...the first person ever on my ignore list.

Congratulations, you're the second on mine. I want to cut you off while you're still young

	15-11-2003 17:51									#104
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quote: Congratulations, you're the second on mine. I want to cut you off while you're still young

I'm never bothered by other's opinions (no matter how plain stupid they prove to be) so I'm not putting people on the Ignore list, it's always worthy a laugh

	15-11-2003 19:26									#105
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It's not his opinions that bother me; it the fact that he is so completely inane.

Kinda like MOBIUS, the other one on my ignore

	15-11-2003 21:44									#106
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Mourn the dead.
After that what?
Thinking not of political repercussions is closing your eyes and truely insulting those dead, for a change.
Attacking Berlusconi because of this? Sure. He sent them in didn't he?

By doing so he legitimized the attrocities in Iraq.
Helping? You think the agloamericans want help? Why? So they can eat 2 Bigmacs instead of one while you share the burden of their criminal monstrocity? Anmd legitimizing it as well?
Of course you should let them deal with what they've done and thus helping that such things do not repeat.
And helping the Iraqui people was not on the agenda. Pacifying a bombed and massacred people so they will not object when their country is being sucked dry by their companies is the "help" you're talking about.

Right. I think the onces who truely insult the dead, amongst them the Iraquis who died, I didn't see anyone of our Milaneze Bberlusconi enthusiasts friends mentioned them, are those who chose not to think, after of course, they've mourned.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 15-11-2003 at 21:49

	15-11-2003 22:22									#107
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That last post by paiktis was bizzare!

I was going to ask just how sending Italian military police to Iraq was legitimizing Saddam's attrocities when paiktis made it clear that he considers a war of liberation from a mass murderer to be an attrocity.

paiktis, I never, ever want to hear from you again about how barbarous Hitler and his regime were. Saddam and Hitler were both fascist murderers who had to be overthrown. Just because Hitler killed Greeks and Saddam did not does not justify your condemnation of one and not the other.

	16-11-2003 14:29									#108
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quote: Thinking not of political repercussions is closing your eyes and truely insulting those dead, for a change.

Trying to pull those deads for your political convenience, this is what i find insulting.
It's obvious that we have different opinions on the matter and i'm very proud of this.

quote: Attacking Berlusconi because of this? Sure. He sent them in didn't he? By doing so he legitimized the attrocities in Iraq.

You can attack Berlusconi on several choices but, IMHO, not on this one, i don't want him to remove italian troops from Iraq, i want France, Germany, Greece send their troops too, i want the UN to deploy the whole UNPROFOR!
As you probably know, UN was not a war supporter, but after the end of the war, in resolution 1483, it states:

[the security council] Appeals to Member States and concerned organizations to assist the
people of Iraq in their efforts to reform their institutions and rebuild their country,
and to contribute to conditions of stability and security in Iraq in accordance with
this resolution;

So Berlusconi sent Carabinieri in, as requested by UN, followed by Red Cross and other humanitarian organizations.
Do you know why the UN asked this? because strangely enough they think that it's more important to rebuild the country for Iraqui people than continuing to play your diplomacy games.

Now, if you really think that someone is "legitimizing atrocities", well look at the UN, not at Berlusconi.

quote: Helping? You think the agloamericans want help? Why? So they can eat 2 Bigmacs instead of one while you share the burden of their criminal monstrocity? Anmd legitimizing it as well?

You continue to miss the point: the point is not the USA, the point is Iraq.
Let's say that Italians and all other military forces leave the area: Great party at paiktis home, a great slap in the face for the evil USA empire... but wait a moment, USA are happy too, they have their troops safe back at home, they don't have to spend huge quantity of money (i read 20 billion of dollars) in the effort of rebuilding Iraq... So who's the only one who will suffer truly from from your diplomacy slap? Obviously Iraq.

quote: Of course you should let them deal with what they've done and thus helping that such things do not repeat.

Letting Iraq to become another Somalia? I don't think that Italy should let Iraqui people to suffer and die in an endless civil-war just because, for the ten years to follow, paiktis and his friends can point their fingers at Iraq and say "you see? their sufference is due to the USA".

quote: And helping the Iraqui people was not on the agenda. Pacifying a bombed and massacred people so they will not object when their country is being sucked dry by their companies is the "help" you're talking about.

No, the help i'm talking about is to reestablish electricity, to reestablish hospitals, to protect food, water and medicine convoys, all things that, i'm sorry to disrupt your illusions, were done and will be done again by italian troops in Nassiriya.

quote: Right. I think the onces who truely insult the dead, amongst them the Iraquis who died, I didn't see anyone of our Milaneze Bberlusconi enthusiasts friends mentioned them, are those who chose not to think, after of course, they've mourned.

Bah, so you think that the method to honor the Iraquis who died is to remove all the troops and let Iraq become a second Somalia... you've a very strange way of reasoning.

BTW, for your information when someone talks about casualties or victims they're talking about ALL casualties or victims, i suppose i could add that our "lefties enthusiasts friends" never mentioned both Iraquis casualties AND Italian civil casualties (yes, there was some) but since i know that it's a pointless argument i'll let it down.

I notice that i've ignored the advice i gave Datajack a couple of posts ago but i promise i'm going to follow it in future: I think i've successfully communicated my feelings to all the people with enough intelligence to distinguish between a diplomacy game and the real life; unfortunately news of other deaths in Iraq continue to appear, let's hope that their sacrifice will be more useful for building a new Iraq than simply for "putting down Berlusconi".

	17-11-2003 17:19									#109
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I do not care if you use the word idiot or testa di cazzo but my point was that instead of debating perfectly valid points you were resorting to insult

I'm not at all new in this forum...I've been here for more than 4 years...and I used to have good, heated discussions without beeing insulted and called a communist, like it happens in Italy as soon as someone disagree with you. I'm not even leftist, for God sake...in the test suggested here some month ago I resulted exactly in the center.
On the other end I do believe in peace and I can't respect a person that says that the peace flag is ass-wiping (yes, I've seen that post)..imagine how many would feel if I would say that the american or the italian flag are ass-wiping.

About the sadness of the tragedy...I do feel that the mourning that is now on display in Italy is in many cases insincere and I do not want to add another needless "I'm sorry". In addition to that I do feel that is irrational to mourn just "our" deaths....blood (American, English, Polish, Iraqui) has been flowing in Iraq for month now (for years I should say)..but here (in Italy) none seemed to care until last week.
So you do get the impression that the attitude is "we need some blood to be able to sit at the table of peace" (Mussolini justification for attacking France in 1940).
I'm not saying that that is the attitude of the guys that go in Iraq to sacrifice their lives...but it is the attitude of the politicians, that sacrifice other people lives in order to gain kudos in the eyes of US.


Moreover I remind you that much of the debate about sending troops was about its danger...in fact Martino (italian foreign minister) said he still thinks it was not dangerous ( ).

But at the end of the day my real point is not as much against the mission as it is against the mourning....I do feel nausea against this politically driven mourning.

But do I know...I'm an idiot, a communist, a whiner and a troll

	17-11-2003 18:56									#110
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No, Sloth your a very reasonable fellow. It's the two other italians who obviously cant have a debate and behave.

	17-11-2003 22:53									#111
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quote: yes, I've seen that post

And you were so excited it took you three days to find a proper reply.. very fitting

quote: imagine how many would feel if I would say that the american or the italian flag are ass-wiping

Of course, the peace flag was the biggest marketing discover of the last 10 years; just take the gay flag, pring peace on it and sell it for 5 €- you have my respect

quote: But do I know...I'm an idiot, a communist, a whiner and a troll

Good to see at least someone has discovered the meaning of self-awareness

quote: No, Sloth your a very reasonable fellow. It's the two other italians who obviously cant have a debate and behave

I think you two complete each other, and that could mean much

	18-11-2003 00:19									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy That will teach them to import pizza to a Muslim country.

This is terrible thing to say.... But more than that, it is a tragedy that you said it before I did....

Seriously though: RIP Italian soldiers.... Thanks for your sacrifice.

	18-11-2003 01:07									#113
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Im tired of always banning the usual suspects, so the opportunity to bag new trophies is always appealing.

Why don't a few people (if you have any doubts about whether I mean you, I do) get back to the subject of the thread, rather than spamming away with your respective opinions of each other?