03-12-2003 13:08									#31
	Put an end to popups!

I fully endorse proceeding with discussions with CFC.

Maybe we can chat them up with 'what about this idea' rather than 'here is the treaty in 14 parts'. Let's see where it goes and what they say is important to them.

	11-12-2003 07:14									#32
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Revised Alliance Proposal

Preamble:

Apolyton and Fanatiku hereby fully agree to this historic treaty in spirit and in deed, we fully agree to the following terms of this alliance.

I Full Diplomatic Cooperation (United Front)

Before starting a conflict, both nations shall consult the other in an attempt to form a diplomatic or military agreement about the issue involved. Both shall faithfully try to aid the other in settling disputes with foreign powers where possible.

Neither nation shall plot against the other with any foreign nation.

Both nations shall respect the laws and customs of the other, and shall treat each other will respect and courtesey.

Any grievances between players or representatives involving both teams shall be diplomaticly handled by the leadership of both teams, and if the matter cannot be solved internally, both teams pledge to keep the individuals in conflict apart in order to further the greater good, which is the continued well-being of this alliance.

II Tech Cooperation

Both nations pledge to share with the other what tech is being researched and what tech is planned to be researched.

Both nations will faithfully attempt to never cross-research or compete by researching the same tech.

Both nations prioritize trades with each other, prefering trades with an ally than with another party.

Both nations will accept a Trade Rate of 125 regarding technologies. This implies any techs whose value is 25% greater or lesser than the other may be traded without compensation. If the cost difference of these techs is greater than 25%, the nation with the less valuable tech must compensate by including gold in the deal.

The amount of gold shall be determined as follows: 10g for every research point (as defined in the editor) needed to bring the lesser tech to 75% of the value of the greater tech.

Neither nation will resell technology aquired from the other without express permission from the nation who first aquired the technology.

III Right of Passage

Both nations agree to allow the naval units of either nation to travel in the cultural borders of the other nation.

However, before sending in any group of ships larger than two, either nation must inform the other of the size and nature of the naval group, and ask permission before entering the coastal waters of the other.

IV Homeland Protection Doctrine

Both nations agree that no other nation shall have cities or units on our continent.

Should another nation land units on our continent, build cities, or aquire cities, both nations pledge to use whatever means necessary (including diplomacy and force) to remove them.

Any exceptions to this rule must be explicitly agreed upon by both nations.

V Non-Aggression Pact

Neither nation shall enter the land inside the cultural borders, or any mutually agreed on borders, of the other without prior approval.

Neither nation shall attack any unit of the other nation.

Neither nation shall pillage the improvements of the other without prior approval.

Neither nation shall intentionally block the movement of the other.

VI Shared Intelligence

In times of war, when both nations have a common enemy, all military intelligence about the enemy shall be freely shared.

Should only one of the nations be at war, the other nation may perform intelligence gathering and espionage for the other, which shall be fully compensated by the nation at war.

VII Military Defense Pact

Should either nation be invaded by an outside party, the other nation is bound by this treaty to declare war on the attacker and remain at war until the alliance has negotiated a peace settlement or until the attacker no longer poses a direct threat to the ally.

Once at war, each nation pledges to fully commit itself to the cause of war and to use all means at their disposal to promptly prosecute the war.

Any cities captured by an enemy and recaptured by an ally shall be returned to the original owner of the city at a reasonable time.

This alliance is defensive only. The allies may agree to jointly attack a third party, but if one ally decides to attack a third party and thereby start a war, the other is not obligated to also declare war, even if the third party later attacks the ally.

VIII Separation of Agreements

This alliance agreement does not preclude both nations from making additional deals, agreements, or pledges outside this agreement. Should any of those additional deals, agreements, or pledges be violated or broken, this agreement shall remain intact.

IX Termination of This Agreement

This agreement shall not end until the following takes place:

1) An issue or disagreement within the alliance rises up that cannot be resolved by a complete and faithful negotiation by both sides.

2) After negotiation has failed, either side may propose a "No Confidence" vote within their nation, regarding their faith in the alliance.

3) Should a majority of the people of either nation vote that they have "No Confidence" in the alliance, the other nation must immediately be informed of the decision.

4) After being informed, this agreement shall terminate. Both nations may then begin negotiations on a new agreement.

Should either nation intentionally break the terms of this agreement, the other side may automaticlly declare "No confidence" in the agreement. Upon informing the other side of the breach and the decision to declare "No confidence", this agreement shall end.

	11-12-2003 07:44									#33
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I renew my objection for sending them a NAP.
We will be attacking them one day.
Either we break this treaty, or we give them warning of our attack with a "No confidence"

Just reply with one of Arnies "Duly Noted"
I already know I am going to be ignored.


Do we have time (or the patience) to poll each of these points ?

	11-12-2003 08:00									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Just reply with one of Arnies "Duly Noted" I already know I am going to be ignored.

And after I actually agreed with you about what we both think CFC is thinking right now

	23-12-2003 11:33									#36
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

bump

	23-12-2003 12:16									#37
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Adding to BF's idea of CFC giving us gpt in exchange for tech:

This is actually a GREAT idea, even if we actually do a deal straight up: (i.e., no percentages). CFC will think that we will be having tech parity, but in reality, we won't. Here's why:

We will be trading with CGN. All trades that we do with CGN will have a no-trade clause attached which means that we will not trade it with CFC. Now given that most techs we will reasearch ourselves, then we get the trading rights with CGN, not CFC. CFC will only be able to trade those techs which it researches itself (using 40-turn techs) which means that for every tech CFC manages to trade, we'll be able to trade about 3. So we will be very much ahead of CFC in terms of techs despite them thinking that we will have tech parity.

I will give a practical example: Let's suppose Poly researches tech A, CGN does B and CFC does C (40 turns). We will do A in 15 turns thanks to the CFC gold, we trade that to CGN for tech B. We also by treaty give it to CFC. Now we start on tech D, we trade that to CGN for tech E but CFC hasn't finished C yet. At this point, Poly has techs A,B,D,E but CFC only has techs A,D. And so on...

	23-12-2003 12:40									#38
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With our proposed borders CFC gets about 230 land tiles(including islands) and APO gets about 330. CFC's land is better, it is has less jungle. Giving them EQ (or BoP as they are asking for) is not about evening out the tiles as you can see. It's more about security (at least we hope it is for them) or getting a better jumping off point to attack us.

If they take our gpt deal for tech, then I would be inclined to give them EQ4 ASAP.

	24-12-2003 01:00									#39
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

btw, we are going to have a chat with CFC later tonight (I'll be there after 9pm CST) to try and hammer out the details of the alliance issue, specifically the tech clause. I strongly suggest we go for this gpt deal.

	24-12-2003 02:38									#40
	Put an end to popups!

I want to make it clear that I like our tech proposal -- that they give us GPT and we give them the tech when we're done. My main concern is if that's going to be enough for them. My impression from their alliance proposal is that they want us to have complete tech equality -- they get whatever we have. While I don't agree with that, it's going to be difficult for us to communicate a reason why other than "We don't want to give you techs" or "we don't really trust you long-term" or "we don't like moochers."

We really need to draw some lines for our negotiations tonight. We need to know how much we can give in each of the areas CFC has proposed in their draft, and we also need to know if the proposal I've made is approved or not by the Consuls.

--Togas

	24-12-2003 11:17									#41
	Support Apolyton

The final version of the agreement after considerable negotiations with CFC:

this is a rewrite of our original draft done by CFC, after we negotiated each of the articles.

quote: Preamble: Apolyton and Fanatiku hereby fully agree to this historic treaty in spirit and in deed, we fully agree to the following terms of this alliance. Specific terms: Tech = Technology Party = one of the members of this agreement ___________________________ I - Diplomatic Co-operation Before starting a conflict, both nations shall consult the other in an attempt to form a diplomatic or military agreement about the issue involved. Both shall faithfully try to aid the other in settling disputes with foreign powers where possible. Neither nation shall plot against the other with any foreign nation. Both nations shall respect the laws and customs of the other, and shall treat each other will respect and courtesey. Any grievances between players or representatives involving both teams shall be diplomaticly handled by the leadership of both teams, and if the matter cannot be solved internally, both teams pledge to keep the individuals in conflict apart in order to further the greater good, which is the continued well-being of this alliance. ___________________________ II - Technological Parity Both nations pledge to share with the other what tech is being researched and what tech is planned to be researched. Both nations will faithfully attempt to never cross-research or compete by researching the same tech. Both nations prioritize trades with each other, prefering trades with an ally than with another party. The two parties of this pact are to combine their economic power to enable the best possible research rate. Both nations will show full disclosure on their economic situation, and act accordingly. Any technology researched cooperatively is to be shared between the nations of this pact. If a no-trade treaty disallows sharing of the received tech in question, the technology cannot be shared. ___________________________ III - Right of Passage Both nations agree to allow the naval units of either nation to travel in the cultural borders of the other nation. However, before sending in any group of ships larger than two, either nation must inform the other of the size and nature of the naval group, and ask permission before entering the coastal waters of the other Neither nation shall enter the land inside the cultural borders, or any mutually agreed on borders, of the other without prior approval. ___________________________ IV - Homeland Security Both nations agree that no other nation shall have cities or units on our continent. Should another nation land units on our continent, build cities, or aquire cities, both nations pledge to use whatever means necessary (including diplomacy and force) to remove them. Any exceptions to this rule must be explicitly agreed upon by both nations. ___________________________ V - Non-Agression Agreement Neither nation shall attack any unit of the other nation. Neither nation shall pillage the improvements of the other without prior approval. Neither nation shall intentionally block the movement of the other. If one party withdraws from the agreement, this section MUST remain until determined in section IX ___________________________ VI - Sharing of Military Intelligence In times of war, when both nations have a common enemy, all military intelligence about the enemy shall be freely shared. Should only one of the nations be at war, the other nation may perform intelligence gathering and espionage for the other, which shall be fully compensated by the nation at war. ___________________________ VII - Mutual Protection Agreement Should either nation be invaded by an outside party, the other nation is bound by this treaty to declare war on the attacker and remain at war until the alliance has negotiated a peace settlement or until the attacker no longer poses a direct threat to the ally. Once at war, each nation pledges to fully commit itself to the cause of war and to use all means at their disposal to promptly prosecute the war. Any cities captured by an enemy and recaptured by an ally shall be returned to the original owner of the city at a reasonable time. This alliance is defensive only. The allies may agree to jointly attack a third party, but if one ally decides to attack a third party and thereby start a war, the other is not obligated to also declare war, even if the third party later attacks the ally. Both nations are obliged not to impede on the other nation's war. ___________________________ VIII - Exterior Treaties and Agreements This alliance agreement does not preclude both nations from making additional deals, agreements, or pledges outside this agreement. Should any of those additional deals, agreements, or pledges be violated or broken, this agreement shall remain intact. No other treaty may contradict this alliance without approval from both parties. ___________________________ IX - Termination This treaty will terminate when one of the following is fulfilled: A) The two parties in this agreement are the only two parties remaining in the game B) One of the parties is destroyed. C) Both parties agree to withdraw from the agreement. If one party notifies the other that they wish to terminate the alliance, there shall be a 10 day period to renegotiate the alliance. If the alliance is not renegotiated in that time the alliance shall end, however Article IV and V shall remain in effect for both parties.

	24-12-2003 11:39									#42
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Comments? I like it.

	24-12-2003 11:43									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

I wasn't part of the discussion for it so I don't know what if any wrangling went on, but I like it too.

I'm glad we were able to get the tech sharing limited only to cooperative research rather than everything.

From the looks of the treaty we may well have enough peace to get our REX finished up and our cities prepared for competing with the other continent.

	24-12-2003 11:44									#44
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The tech part is too vague. It does not say how much CFC will contribute to the research pool. I do not want them banking gold while we plug away at research.

	24-12-2003 13:39									#45
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill I'm glad we were able to get the tech sharing limited only to cooperative research rather than everything.

That was the part which involved most of the wrangling but fortunately we got them to understand that it was better to leave that part out. This basically means that tech parity is not necessarily guaranteed, only with respect to the techs developed cooperatively.

Contrary to what some people on this team think, we appease when we think it best for us in the long run. But we draw a line when we think a proposal is not in our interests. That has been FAM policy since day 1 and will be till our last turn.

	24-12-2003 13:58									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A "policy" is one thing, putting it into "action" is another. You can say whatever you want about your intentions but the fact is that I think you are just too ready to be concilliatory towards other Civs.

Also, tell me, just how many "lines" have you drawn so far?

	24-12-2003 14:43									#47
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

There's helpful criticism and then there's just being a jerk about something.

Please.

BigFree, you've made your point a long time ago. It's clear that we disagree with you and that we're going to continue to disagree with you on this. Can't we agree to disagree and get on with things?

The debate happens, a decision is made, and then we have to get over it and go on with our business. Instead of stewing, throwing stones, or trying to pick fights just take your "I told you so" rights and move onto a new issue already.

--Togas

	25-12-2003 01:08									#48
	Full PM-box? Change here!

"If you dissent, shut up" Ok, fine. Adios.

	25-12-2003 01:54									#49
	Inflate your Upload Space

Have you really, truly left BigFree?

	25-12-2003 19:04									#50
	Got spare money?

A few queries:

I suppose some of this may have been worked out with CFC, but it would be nice to see pinned down for those who missed the chat (I will read bits of it eventually!).

Full disclosure of economic situation - what exactly does this mean?

For the case of the free sharing of intel during war, if both parties are at war, then one will pay and the other gets the info free, or the agreement is broken! Can we get more on this, and if it was worked out?

Termination - what if the agreement is broken, and the breaker refuses to let us off?

What about sharing broad info on mid-term plans, eg 'we are planning on war with xxx in around xxx turns', in order to perhaps aid each other in diplomatic interaction with the intended target through confusion, misinformation etc.

Exterior treaties - this sounds a little dodgy. I need to think about it more to see if I can come up with a definite problem, but it sounds dangerously vague to me. maybe I am being paranoid.


I can't believe I'm turning into a loophole-arguer here, but this may just be important. If I'm being unnecessarily pedantic just tell me to pull my head in. I gotta ask the stupid questions at times to get to the good ones.

	25-12-2003 19:14									#51
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

WIA, I learned a LONG time ago, that there really isn't such a thing as a stupid question, except for one that is NEVER asked!!

As for the economic discloser thing, I would imagine that we could exchange screenshots of the F1 screen (just the income/expense/slider part). Yes, I know that we can fake this and so can they, BUT we can also make sims to verify that info. If say, they have a bunch of their cities set on specialist, then take the screenshot, then change it back, the only way to know if this is true is to independantly verify it.

Also, I don't think that we need to send this to them every turn, but maybe every 5 turns or so.

I would be against sending them more than just this info, this is all we need and the same is true for them. If they want to verify it, they can do the work as much as we can, too.

E_T

	26-12-2003 02:18									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Don't worry, WIA, these are excellent issues:

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Full disclosure of economic situation - what exactly does this mean?

We'll likely do as ET suggests and exchange shots of our F1 screen.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt For the case of the free sharing of intel during war, if both parties are at war, then one will pay and the other gets the info free, or the agreement is broken! Can we get more on this, and if it was worked out?

The language of "Freely sharing" intel means that intel of all types shall be given without compensation or obligation. This doesn't really apply to city investigations because if both parties are at war with 1 target, neither can do city investigations. It's really just a "we will both fully cooperate" sort of thing.

You'll notice that if only one party is at war, the other will do investigation and the party at war will compensate them.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Termination - what if the agreement is broken, and the breaker refuses to let us off?

This is one of the most troublesome areas of the treaty. We tried, in chat, to keep the original language of our proposal which allowed either team to just cancel the treaty, but they were too wise to that. They want a full-game treaty that only ends when we are the last two nations. At their insistance we agreed to leave the NAP part of this treaty in place even if the treaty is broken or one party decides by vote to leave the treaty. Ultimately, as discussed in our private chat, there is no such thing as an eternal treaty or an unbreakable NAP. The problem is, of course, is that one of us is just going to have to break it.

What we have, on it's face, is an eternal treaty. Take that for what it is. It does seem clear, though, that CFC has absolutely no issues with our breaking the NAP with GCA. It's very likely that they didn't even notice, as we waited a long time before attacking GCA and CFC & GCA had horrible diplomacy and rarely talked. GCA didn't publicize our betrayal to anyone except GWT.

CFC also may believe that we broke it out of loyalty to them (or so we tried to tell them) and loyalty to our agreement with CDG. Either way, they do seem to view us as a nation that will keep its word, and they do seem to want to have our word that we will not ever break that NAP between us.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt What about sharing broad info on mid-term plans, eg 'we are planning on war with xxx in around xxx turns', in order to perhaps aid each other in diplomatic interaction with the intended target through confusion, misinformation etc.

That seems to be the plan, at least diplomaticly in section I of the treaty.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Exterior treaties - this sounds a little dodgy. I need to think about it more to see if I can come up with a definite problem, but it sounds dangerously vague to me. maybe I am being paranoid.

You're being paranoid, however, I agree that this section really doesn't have any value after the CFC changes that made breaking this treaty or leaving this treaty much more difficult. We just wanted to make sure that if we disagreed over some other issue or other treaty that it wouldn't effect this treaty.

--Togas

	26-12-2003 02:58									#53
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by MJW Have you really, truly left BigFree?

I just said goodbye to the dissenting arguments I was making.

It's not that easy to get rid of me!

	26-12-2003 21:31									#54
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree It's not that easy to get rid of me!

heh.

	27-12-2003 06:50									#55
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Togas The language of "Freely sharing" intel means that intel of all types shall be given without compensation or obligation. This doesn't really apply to city investigations because if both parties are at war with 1 target, neither can do city investigations. It's really just a "we will both fully cooperate" sort of thing.