14-11-2003 20:36									#31
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How do you define "better general"? If you mean military theorist or someone in a staff role, by all means Guderian. If you mean someone who commands forces in battle, or who plans and leads campaigns, then I'm not so sure.

I've always considered von Manstein to be the German's best operational general in WWII.

	14-11-2003 20:56									#32
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On military ground Guderian, no doubt.
On human ground, that guy was a true arrogant prussian soldier.
I read his book about his campaigns, he looked at his men as you would look at your car or your horse: spare them, not because they are human beings, but because they will bring you further if you do.
He knew officers (yes, these are individuals with names) and units (units have names, men composing the units not).

	14-11-2003 22:35									#33
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the difference between rommel and guderian is that the latter had several entire army corps under his command... rommel didn't ...

so with the means he had under his command, rommel did the best job ...

	14-11-2003 22:54									#34
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Daddy Blitzkreig - vote to Guderian

	14-11-2003 22:57									#35
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As they are both dead, I voted Banana.

If you had asked "who WAS the better general"...

	14-11-2003 23:22									#36
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Well the POLL question said 'Choose which WAS better', so Cruddy you got no excuse .

	14-11-2003 23:26									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Which is the better general? Rommel whipped Patton it the recent poll, now he takes on his fellow countryman, Guderian! WooHoo!

Lancer's asking 2 different questions here, so if you're really miffed;-

1) Neither of them are worth spit as a general now, except perhaps to mediumistic ancestor worshipping troops who speak German.

2) At the time, Guderian was a strategist, (coming up with the ideas) and Rommel was the tactician (delivering the execution of the ideas).

	15-11-2003 00:38									#38
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Guderian. Gotta be, the man wrote the book on modern mechanised warfare.

	15-11-2003 01:00									#39
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I'm another vote for Guderian all the way.

	15-11-2003 02:32									#40
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Was Manstein as good as Guderian, I assume people agrre he was better than Rommel

Von Manstein and Guderian can't be compared, because their spheres of expertise were so different. Guderian was a theoretician and doctrinal developer first and foremost, and his time (and level) of field command was cut drastically by his disagreements with Hitler. Von Manstein had a huge operations area, had to coordinate some real half-assed underequipped allied troops (Italians and Rumanians especially) and deal with both numerical and materiel disadvantages on a defensive front. At the Army Group / grand operational level, von Manstein was the best there was on any side.

	15-11-2003 02:36									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dry On military ground Guderian, no doubt. On human ground, that guy was a true arrogant prussian soldier. I read his book about his campaigns, he looked at his men as you would look at your car or your horse: spare them, not because they are human beings, but because they will bring you further if you do. He knew officers (yes, these are individuals with names) and units (units have names, men composing the units not).

And that's the way a commander has to be, in order to be successful. Caring too much for your troops will lead to you writing a lot more letters home to wives or parents, because you get paralyzed at making the necessary ugly decisions that are part of warfare.

	15-11-2003 02:39									#42
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis the difference between rommel and guderian is that the latter had several entire army corps under his command... rommel didn't ... so with the means he had under his command, rommel did the best job ...

Rommel had Panzerarmee Afrika, and the Germans and Italians lost a couple of hundred thousand prisoners in May of '43 when it surrendered, and on the western front, Rommel was a Heeresgruppe commander.

	15-11-2003 02:39									#43
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This would be more fun if it were for the WORST US general of WWII

	15-11-2003 03:16									#44
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Hitler. Okay, not a general.

Chiang Kai-shek?

Who was the Italian they called "Electric Whiskers"? He's a candidate.

Some of Stalin's drinking buddies would belong there too, untill Zhukov got them weeded out.

	15-11-2003 04:57									#45
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Didn't Myrddin say US General, uh Clem?

	15-11-2003 06:00									#46
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Cthulhu.

	15-11-2003 16:29									#47
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A mere technicality, Imran. I perceived the question that he meant to ask, and answered it. I'm good at this.

	15-11-2003 17:57									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Which is the better general? Rommel whipped Patton it the recent poll, now he takes on his fellow countryman, Guderian! WooHoo!

hi ,

none of those two nazi scum's , ......

have a nice day

	15-11-2003 18:32									#49
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Rommel wasn't a nazi.

	15-11-2003 21:05									#50
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My favorite general is general chaos.
http://www.playerschoicegames.com/generalchaos.html

I choose rommel.

	15-11-2003 21:14									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Rommel wasn't a nazi.

Guderian, however, demanded that any of his officers who didn't agree with Nazi doctrine step forward and be dismissed. But he did this, it seems, to cover his ass and please the bosses rather than any real doctrinal fidelity to the Nazis. So he was an opportunist.

	16-11-2003 03:05									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Rommel wasn't a nazi.

hi ,

he helped to implement the war , when he started at the atlantic wall he used forced labour , ......

he defended the nazi regime at all costs , .......

so ; guilty as charged

have a nice day

	16-11-2003 05:15									#53
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , he helped to implement the war , when he started at the atlantic wall he used forced labour , ...... he defended the nazi regime at all costs , ....... so ; guilty as charged have a nice day

I would rather see him as a German patriot who tried his best to follow his orders. He was part of the conspiracy to assassin Hitler, and payed with his life when it failed.

	16-11-2003 05:20									#54
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This discussion reminds me of what happened when Swedish Sven-Göran Eriksson was chosen as head of the English football national team.

Some English patriots said "That's like chosing Rommel as commander-in-chief just because he's the best"

	16-11-2003 07:09									#55
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quote: none of those two nazi scum's , ......

The Nazi's did nothing good. Let's abandon combined arms theory because of Guderian!

Stick the fingers in your ears... AHHH...

	16-11-2003 09:59									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie I would rather see him as a German patriot who tried his best to follow his orders. He was part of the conspiracy to assassin Hitler, and payed with his life when it failed.

hi ,

and before he became a member of the con theory , ......

what about 1938 when he ignored what went on in his nation and when the germans started to use the KZ's , ........

if he would have been a patriot he would have taken a stand against hitler and them other naziscumbags long before , .....

but yeah , the party membership was also out of patriotic reasons hé , .......

have a nice day

	16-11-2003 10:05									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: none of those two nazi scum's , ...... The Nazi's did nothing good. Let's abandon combined arms theory because of Guderian! Stick the fingers in your ears... AHHH...

and now you shall tell us all the good stuff they did maybe , ......

ever read something like mein kampf , in gothic german that is , the original one , or lets talk about that other great book of that era , " the eternal germany " , ......

or shall we start with a list of camps that where up and running from 1938 on , .........

	16-11-2003 10:11									#58
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quote: now you shall tell us all the good stuff they did maybe

Yes.. as said in this thread Guderian invented combined arms theory which changed warfare forever (whether you see that as good is irrelavent). Without scientists who ended up working for the Nazis, humanity would not have done nearly as well in rocketry as we have done now.

quote: shall we start with a list of camps that where up and running from 1938 on

Which is relevant to a discussion on who is a better general how?

And posts like these are why I hate most Israelis (Siro isn't this bad, at the least). They can't even acknowledge good generalship if, heaven forbid, it was a Nazi general exercising it.

	16-11-2003 10:50									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: now you shall tell us all the good stuff they did maybe Yes.. as said in this thread Guderian invented combined arms theory which changed warfare forever (whether you see that as good is irrelavent). Without scientists who ended up working for the Nazis, humanity would not have done nearly as well in rocketry as we have done now. quote: shall we start with a list of camps that where up and running from 1938 on Which is relevant to a discussion on who is a better general how? And posts like these are why I hate most Israelis (Siro isn't this bad, at the least). They can't even acknowledge good generalship if, heaven forbid, it was a Nazi general exercising it.

combined arms from him , well ever been in paris , cause when you are give a call , time to visit some places then , ......

and as for him , well he defended the regime and he gave orders to put people in KZ's , ..... not only jews , gays , political prisoners , commie's , some muslims , some hindoes , etc , ......

and he would probably put you inthere aswell , since you hate someone else , ......

hate kills , but yeah thats something you would not now , would you , .......

guderian defended a regime based on hate , he himself hated others based on race , religion , gender , ethnic group etc , ....

and you my friend would be on his list also , or have you never seen the letter rommel wrote to the german high command stating that " they should take care of the low undeveloped race that calls itself "muslim" after they where done with the jews " , ....... and if you are ever in europe , give a call or drop a line , then you can see that letter with your own eyes (!) , and all the letters that get written back about that subject , .....

	16-11-2003 11:04									#60
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quote: and as for him , well he defended the regime and he gave orders to put people in KZ's

Yes... and? Putting people in Concentration Camps has nothing to do with his genius as a general.

quote: and you my friend would be on his list also

Yes, and?

You, as always, seem to be once again to be missing the point. None of this crap matters. Who cares if he was an evil bastard? Sometimes the most evil bastards make the best generals.