19-11-2003 07:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hahaha keep laughing, out of the two of us, you still haven't made a post with any substance.

100% correct. but ur under the erroneous assumption that me pointing out ur dodging needs to be followed by some substantive dissertation.

	19-11-2003 07:52									#32
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Sure, you can hire personal security guards. They just can't go around violating the rights of other people, same as you can't, and same as the police can't.

	19-11-2003 07:54									#33
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Sure, you can hire personal security guards. They just can't go around violating the rights of other people, same as you can't, and same as the police can't.

and if I do who enforces that? god?

	19-11-2003 07:55									#34
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Yavoon's contribution:

quote: total dodge. more dodging. its obvious david floyd is not interested in what will happen. only what should.

It's obvious yavoon is not interested in backing up his claims, just dodging.

	19-11-2003 07:57									#35
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quote: and if I do who enforces that? god?

The courts and the police. That's what they're there for.

This is what I mean by people not understanding Libertarianism, although I rather suspect yavoon is doing this intentionally.

	19-11-2003 07:58									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Yavoon's contribution: It's obvious yavoon is not interested in backing up his claims, just dodging.

is this seriously how libertarians argue? this is a joke. since when does the person pointing out the obvious have to come back w/ claims? I mean are u that stupid?

if I say "ur dodging the argument." does that THEN REQUIRE ME TO make some longass post on claims or questions. can't I merely point out ur dodge? it doesn't seem that difficult.

	19-11-2003 08:00									#37
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You can do that, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously. I wasn't dodging, I was being a smartass, and I did go back and answer his post, after making my point.

	19-11-2003 08:01									#38
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The courts and the police. That's what they're there for. This is what I mean by people not understanding Libertarianism, although I rather suspect yavoon is doing this intentionally.

but if I own the land I can just decide that u can't afford police fees. therefore u dont get representation. so u really don't have rights anymore.

	19-11-2003 08:05									#39
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yavoon -

quote: is this seriously how libertarians argue?

We're arguing?

quote: this is a joke.

Glad you caught onto the symbolism of the

quote: since when does the person pointing out the obvious have to come back w/ claims? I mean are u that stupid?

You're dodging.

quote: if I say "ur dodging the argument." does that THEN REQUIRE ME TO make some longass post on claims or questions. can't I merely point out ur dodge? it doesn't seem that difficult.

More dodging.

	19-11-2003 08:05									#40
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What are you talking about? Again, this isn't anarchy we're discussing - or at least, that I'm discussing. You seem to be, though.

Let me say this one more time. Libertarian governments have very few functions. Two of these functions are a police force, with a mandate to protect individual rights and work with the judicial system, which does about what you would expect - that is, criminal trials, civil litigation, contract enforcement, etc.

	19-11-2003 08:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd What are you talking about? Again, this isn't anarchy we're discussing - or at least, that I'm discussing. You seem to be, though. Let me say this one more time. Libertarian governments have very few functions. Two of these functions are a police force, with a mandate to protect individual rights and work with the judicial system, which does about what you would expect - that is, criminal trials, civil litigation, contract enforcement, etc.

its not too hard. u post that u have to pay user fees for a service. including police and representation by the courts. I own land, I can charge u any rent I like. I might even own the police stations land so I can charge them rent. its not very hard for me to make user fees for the police station too expensive for the common person. and if they dont pay the fees, they dont get the representation. therefore they have no rights.

I've done nothing but negotiate rent.

	19-11-2003 08:11									#42
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What I have gotten out of tbis thread is that Libertarianism = Thugocracy.

	19-11-2003 08:14									#43
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yavoon -

quote: I might even own the police stations land so I can charge them rent. its not very hard for me to make user fees for the police station too expensive for the common person.

If you charge too much, what's stopping the other people wanting a police department from moving the station to land they own? We pay user fees now for the police in the form of taxes, do we have this problem you've hypothesised?

quote: I've done nothing but negotiate rent.

You've negotiated yourself out of being a landlord.

	19-11-2003 08:15									#44
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quote: I own land, I can charge u any rent I like.

Absolutely.

quote: I might even own the police stations land so I can charge them rent.

Sure.

quote: its not very hard for me to make user fees for the police station too expensive for the common person.

Then again, why would the government build police stations on land you own? Why would you be the only landowner? Why wouldn't the government negotiate a contract with the lowest bidding landowner? Why wouldn't the government just purchase land outright for the police station?

That's silly. I guess this is back to Bananaland. On Banana Island, you also happen to be the only land owner, so you can charge the police whatever you want to build on your property. You're also stupid enough to piss off the police, who will simply decide to buy land on another island, and leave you to fend off the angry banana field workers you're probably pissing off as well. But this all assumes that Banana Island is part of some nation. If Banana Island is independent, owned by you, then I guess this is all up to you. But don't try to equate the situation on Banana Island with the situation in the real world.

	19-11-2003 08:16									#45
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quote: What I have gotten out of tbis thread is that Libertarianism = Thugocracy.

Yes, if we don't want the Odin's of the world using government to steal from us, we're the thugs...

	19-11-2003 08:16									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker yavoon - If you charge too much, what's stopping the other people wanting a police department from moving the station to land they own? We pay user fees now for the police in the form of taxes, do we have this problem you've hypothesised? You've negotiated yourself out of being a landlord.

where are they going to get this mythical "land they own." I was unaware land grew upon user request.

	19-11-2003 08:16									#47
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Cross post w/ Berzerker, saying essentially the same thing. Goes to show how poorly you understand Libertarianism, yavoon, when we shoot down your "arguments" with the exact same points.

	19-11-2003 08:18									#48
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Absolutely. Sure. Then again, why would the government build police stations on land you own? Why would you be the only landowner? Why wouldn't the government negotiate a contract with the lowest bidding landowner? Why wouldn't the government just purchase land outright for the police station? That's silly. I guess this is back to Bananaland. On Banana Island, you also happen to be the only land owner, so you can charge the police whatever you want to build on your property. You're also stupid enough to piss off the police, who will simply decide to buy land on another island, and leave you to fend off the angry banana field workers you're probably pissing off as well. But this all assumes that Banana Island is part of some nation. If Banana Island is independent, owned by you, then I guess this is all up to you. But don't try to equate the situation on Banana Island with the situation in the real world.

the reason they wouldn't purchase it is cuz I wouldn't sell it. the reason they wouldn't negotiate w/ the other bidders is cuz we are in cahoots w/ each other. and the police will hardly be pissed because its their existance I"m guarenteeing by taking a dump on everyone else.

	19-11-2003 08:18									#49
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quote: where are they going to get this mythical "land they own." I was unaware land grew upon user request.

Well, I guess if there is a situation when you own all the land on Banana Island, as I already pointed out, you can do as you like, with no one to stop you. Might wanna watch out for all those peasants working the banana groves, though - without a cooperative police force, they will probably get pissed and come kill you, as che will point out to you gladly. They aren't morally justified in doing so, of course, but you'll be just as dead.

	19-11-2003 08:20									#50
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, I guess if there is a situation when you own all the land on Banana Island, as I already pointed out, you can do as you like, with no one to stop you. Might wanna watch out for all those peasants working the banana groves, though - without a cooperative police force, they will probably get pissed and come kill you, as che will point out to you gladly. They aren't morally justified in doing so, of course, but you'll be just as dead.

getting pissed and killing me isnt very libertarian of them. and like I pointed out. the police force will hardly be pissed. their existance and luxury is assured. we are symbiots screwing everyone else. not opposing forces.

I dont see where banana island comes into any of this.

	19-11-2003 08:21									#51
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quote: the reason they wouldn't purchase it is cuz I wouldn't sell it.

Congratulations. I might, though. Of course, on Banana Island, you might be the only landowner, but this isn't Banana Island.

quote: the reason they wouldn't negotiate w/ the other bidders is cuz we are in cahoots w/ each other.

Wow, you are in cahoots to make the police force so expensive the government can't afford it? Sounds REALLY intelligent to me

quote: and the police will hardly be pissed because its their existance I"m guarenteeing by taking a dump on everyone else.

Their existence is not guaranteed if the government cannot afford to pay what you are charging.

	19-11-2003 08:23									#52
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quote: getting pissed and killing me isnt very libertarian of them.

No ****. I already pointed out that people will commit crimes, and that's why Libertarians have a police force and a court system. If you're gonna go around dumping on people, you might wanna make sure there's some police protection.

quote: we are symbiots screwing everyone else. not opposing forces.

Yes, that's true, in your Banana Island anarchy where you and your private security force managed to seize all the land and weapons on the island.

quote: I dont see where banana island comes into any of this.

It means you're off in Fantasyland.

	19-11-2003 08:24									#53
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yavoon -

quote: where are they going to get this mythical "land they own." I was unaware land grew upon user request.

I was unaware your hypothetical magically granted all the land to you.

quote: the reason they wouldn't purchase it is cuz I wouldn't sell it. the reason they wouldn't negotiate w/ the other bidders is cuz we are in cahoots w/ each other. and the police will hardly be pissed because its their existance I"m guarenteeing by taking a dump on everyone else.

I'm not in cahoots with you, I'll sell my land outright so they don't have to rent at all.

	19-11-2003 08:24									#54
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Congratulations. I might, though. Of course, on Banana Island, you might be the only landowner, but this isn't Banana Island. Wow, you are in cahoots to make the police force so expensive the government can't afford it? Sounds REALLY intelligent to me Their existence is not guaranteed if the government cannot afford to pay what you are charging.

the gov't can not afford to pay what I am charging???? look its very simple. the user fee for the police force is 50 million dollars, the budget of the police force is 50 million dollars. I am the only user. the reason the user fee is 50 million dollars is because in order to rent the land where they put the police station the contract stipulates their user fees.

pay all the police nice salaries. symbiotic. luv luv relationship.

	19-11-2003 08:25									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker yavoon - I was unaware your hypothetical magically granted all the land to you. I'm not in cahoots with you, I'll sell my land outright so they don't have to rent at all.

while its certainly possible for u to do that. it would be insanely stupid. so while we are assuming ppl are doing whats in their best interests. that is most certainly not it.

no the hypothetical magically granted land to intelligent ppl who act in their selfish interests.

	19-11-2003 08:28									#56
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quote: the gov't can not afford to pay what I am charging???? look its very simple. the user fee for the police force is 50 million dollars, the budget of the police force is 50 million dollars. I am the only user.

You are the only user? Sure, if the population is 1.

There are two moral ways to fund a police force. The first, which I have mentioned, is to charge anyone who uses it an equal amount. The second, which you have hit on, is for one person to donate all the money the police need. So if you want to give the government $50 million to run the police department, go right ahead - but that won't exempt you from laws against violating the rights of others.

quote: the reason the user fee is 50 million dollars is because in order to rent the land where they put the police station the contract stipulates their user fees.

Then I guess the government will rent land from someone else, buy land from someone else, or run the police department from land the government already owns.

	19-11-2003 08:28									#57
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yavoon -

quote: the gov't can not afford to pay what I am charging???? look its very simple. the user fee for the police force is 50 million dollars, the budget of the police force is 50 million dollars. I am the only user. the reason the user fee is 50 million dollars is because in order to rent the land where they put the police station the contract stipulates their user fees. pay all the police nice salaries. symbiotic. luv luv relationship.

And what's stopping the rest of us from creating a police force with users fees we can afford? You're still dodging...

	19-11-2003 08:29									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker yavoon - And what's stopping the rest of us from creating a police force with users fees we can afford? You're still dodging...

the lack of land to put a police station.

	19-11-2003 08:30									#59
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quote: it would be insanely stupid. so while we are assuming ppl are doing whats in their best interests. that is most certainly not it.

Says the person who wants to treat the world as his urinal, and then try to screw the government

Contrary to your flawed understanding, a Libertarian government is not interested in turning a profit - or at least, that is not a primary concern. Just because you could bribe the government in the United States doesn't mean you could buy your way around the law in a Libertarian government.

	19-11-2003 08:30									#60
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quote: the lack of land to put a police station.

Right. Berz forgot. You own all the land.