21-11-2003 18:26									#61
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Correction: I think there are a lot of other muslim countries which are secular.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo For instance, Bangladesh and Indonesia (which actually are both much larger than Turkey) are both secular and nominally democratic. 'Course, I wouldn't really say they're democratic, but then again I wouldn't call Turkey democratic either.

Actually, Turkey is the only country that has enshrined secularism as a clearly stated and defined principle in its constitution, thereby closing all institutional ways and byways or loopholes for religious extremists to work their way into state structure.

And needless to say, Islam has a history of being political. It was (and still is in some places) inconceivable throughout Islamic history to imagine Islam to be something not covering every aspect of human activity. Social contracts, relation of the individual towards the state, legal system, economy and by default politics were never thought in any way different or seperate from the practice of religion.

In light of this prevalent and suffocating interpretation of Islam, Turkey cut the Gordion's knot instead of trying to fit modernity into the tight shirt of obsolete tradition, as the vast majority of Muslim countries try with varying degrees of success today. How dangerous an alternative is that for AQ?

There are in the Muslim world varying degrees of secularism, some declare Islam as state religion. Some like Indonesia fall short of that but lacking a state commitment to secularism, there's a growing pressure on the government to adopt Islam as state religion. You don't have that in Turkey.

Bangladesh has Islam as official state religion since 1988.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo 'Course, I wouldn't really say they're democratic, but then again I wouldn't call Turkey democratic either.

In all fairness compare Turkey with any other Muslim country and you should call it democratic.

It now meets even the EU criteria after the recent constitutional amendments, as even the ever-stringent EU commission points out to no fundamental shortcoming on Turkey's behalf but rather wants to observe implementation of recent amendments.

You can use this to say "see, as long as you don't implement things, you're not democratic", but the failures of implementation are not endemic nor are they as severe as the stereotype would lead many to believe.

This should steal a lot of steam from the rather straightforward statement of "Turkey cannot be called democratic"

	21-11-2003 18:29									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed My parents are in Istanbul at the moment, flying home tonight. Hope they're okay.

Buck, I really hope everything's fine with your parents and you're with them at home as you read this...

	21-11-2003 18:38									#63
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They're fine, but I think flying 700 km to welcome them home is a mite excessive.

	21-11-2003 18:40									#64
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Nice metaphore there with the gordian knot

Actually one of the concerns, in a european level, vis a vis Turkey's entrance to the EU is this: that the military is required to keep Turkey secular but for doing so it inevitably interferes in its politics. And that makes democracy suffer greatly.

However, the argument goes, if the army gets out of politics, thus elevating the level of democracy in Turkey to "european" standards, then the country could lose a large part of its secularism.

Some people present it as a catch - 22 case. That's why Shroeder has said that Turkey's society requires "small revolutions", meaning the acquirmement of the possibility to oust the military off of politics and remain secular.

That's one opinion but if I dare say, it really is the "big" one. The big question.

Needless to say I'm in favour of a fully democratic Turkey entering as a full member of the EU. Half of my summers I'll be there

	21-11-2003 18:51									#65
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It took Greece less than 15 years to go form military rule to being able to join the EU so there must be hope for Turkey.

I hope they do join.(once they've stopped torturing Kurds though)

	21-11-2003 18:55									#66
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Actually it took just 7 years after the overthrow of the colonels' junta, but Greece never had the danger of not being secular. Hence there was no "endemic" drawback.

Also if I dare say the 7 year junta interlude was an anomaly (with many responsible parties and the silent and criminal support of the Junta by the US and UK governments) in the more or less democratic road of Greece after the civil war of 1945. Bare in mind that the entry to the tehn European Coomunity was scheduled for some year in the '60s and "froze" during the dictatorship.

However in Turkey ever since its creation as a modern state in the 1920's the army has always held that position.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 21-11-2003 at 19:41

	21-11-2003 18:58									#67
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That does not mean there's no hope of course. Actually with the rise of the seculer islamists government in Turkey there had been progress in getting the military to pull back somewhat from politics, as was seen in Greece - Turkey relations.
However after that attack I have to say that the military can have a very big "benefit" unfortunately and a return to the little authority it may have had relenquished or at least was going to. That would actually IMO be a recession of the "military withdrawl" process.

	21-11-2003 19:05									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed They're fine, but I think flying 700 km to welcome them home is a mite excessive.

That's a relief . I'm glad it's all settled, not knowing is almost the worst part, even though the chances of anything bad was very small.. but still.. the longer you wait, worse it gets.

	21-11-2003 19:07									#69
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Glad your parents are OK Buck.

	21-11-2003 19:51									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Aren't you a Christian or something?

Yes, I am a Christian. But being a Christian does not mean you have to be a pacifist. Probably most Christians are not pacifists.

There are times when non-violence is called for. For example, when dealing with injustice or persecution, the Bible calls us to turn the other cheek.

But there are other times when violence in self-defense is neccessary. For example, when Israel as a nation was threatened by aggressive neighbors, God frequently called them to wage war to protect themselves.

Also, the Bible calls us to submit to government. So, if the government drafts us in the military, I believe Christians should submit to that decision and serve.

The bottom line is, I think there are some cases where self-defense is appropriate. To never ever be willing to defend your life or the lives of people you love, no matter what, is utterly idiotic IMO.

	21-11-2003 20:38									#71
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it is ...

but what you are promoting is a little bit more radical than defending the lives of the ones you love ...

"For example, when Israel as a nation was threatened by aggressive neighbors, God frequently called them to wage war to protect themselves."

ah, a jihad kind of thing ... I didn't know you supported this ...

	21-11-2003 20:52									#72
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis it is ... but what you are promoting is a little bit more radical than defending the lives of the ones you love ...

How so? I am not advocating a jihad or anything. I was merely saying that a government has the right to go to war in defense of the country, like the US has done in WW2, and other places.

quote: "For example, when Israel as a nation was threatened by aggressive neighbors, God frequently called them to wage war to protect themselves." ah, a jihad kind of thing ... I didn't know you supported this ...

Well, if you knew the kind of barbaric stuff the philistines and other pagan tribes practiced, I think you would be just as sickened by it as God was. Did you know they would throw their newborn babies into fires alive, as offering to their "gods"?

	21-11-2003 20:55									#73
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did you know that during the first crusade the inhabitants of nicea were slaughtered to the last man even though they were christians ...

but hey, how were the crusaders to know right ?

and as for another thing, a lot has been done in the past in the name of god, and i can't think of one thing that didn't turn out as a worst case scenario ...

	21-11-2003 21:02									#74
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis and as for another thing, a lot has been done in the past in the name of god, and i can't think of one thing that didn't turn out as a worst case scenario ...

Agreed! There have been many times when people did terrible things thinking or believing they were acting in the name of god when they were not!

	21-11-2003 21:14									#75
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"inch' allah" ????

"may god continue to bless the US ..." ????

both of these sentences sicken me each time when i hear them (and by the way, if one listens to bushes speeches you hear the second one a bit more as the first one).

the only guy who supposedly got a message from god died almost 2000 years ago.

So who are you (or your governement) to deside whether it is morally right or not to go and fight a war which can only have one result : more terrorism.

	21-11-2003 21:25									#76
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis So who are you (or your governement) to deside whether it is morally right or not to go and fight a war which can only have one result : more terrorism.

And what would pacifism produce? It would produce more terrorism as well. Al Queda is not going to stop bombing us just because we decide to "play nice" and turn the other cheek.

	21-11-2003 21:32									#77
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not turning the other cheek ...

defending yourself by all means
as long as by doing this you don't any 'collateral damage'

	21-11-2003 21:45									#78
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 However, the argument goes, if the army gets out of politics, thus elevating the level of democracy in Turkey to "european" standards, then the country could lose a large part of its secularism. Some people present it as a catch - 22 case. That's why Shroeder has said that Turkey's society requires "small revolutions", meaning the acquirmement of the possibility to oust the military off of politics and remain secular. That's one opinion but if I dare say, it really is the "big" one. The big question.

I catch the drift about the catch-22, I think those small revoltuions are already happening, faster than it shows...

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 That does not mean there's no hope of course. Actually with the rise of the seculer islamists government in Turkey there had been progress in getting the military to pull back somewhat from politics, as was seen in Greece - Turkey relations. However after that attack I have to say that the military can have a very big "benefit" unfortunately and a return to the little authority it may have had relenquished or at least was going to. That would actually IMO be a recession of the "military withdrawl" process.

Well, it is true that in Turkey the army had traditionally assumed the role of vanguard against the danger of fundamentalism, but I sometimes get the impression that outside Turkey the stereotype is that the army actually RULES the country, that they are somehow actively involved in the day to day policy making on a variety of issues...This is not exactly an accurate description...Their rare "interventions" are only in extreme cases of a breach of the fundamentals

I also know, this is enough to make a case about lack of total democracy in Turkey, but my other point is, just by granting a date for start of negotiations of membership for the EU, the EU can actually accelerate this process.

Many people in Turkey think that this is where the EU is cynical: Greece negotiated its membership for 7 years, Spain and Portugal for 9 years, during which the prospect of membership had a stabilising effect on the post-dictatorial democratic processes. But the damn date for start of entry negotiations is not given to Turkey (give the date, and if you have the slightest doubt about Turkey's maturity, negotiations may last as long as you like)...

So, people in Turkey conclude, it's about religion...They dislike a large and Muslim country that will have more weight than all but Germany in the EU, plus they don't believe in a Muslim country democracy can take hold. Any progress is too good to be true, so Europeans drag their feet, "it can't be true, if we give the date what if the Turks screw up? Better wait till they really screw up and say `yeah see they screwed up, we were wise never to take them seriously`..."

Frankly, I find it hard to disagree with the idea that the EU thinks that way

I sometimes think we would have such a different story if Turkey was, say, Protestant

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Needless to say I'm in favour of a fully democratic Turkey entering as a full member of the EU. Half of my summers I'll be there

I would particularly recommend an combined tour of Greek islands and the Turkish coast

	21-11-2003 22:11									#79
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My condolences to the people of Turkey and Britain.

	21-11-2003 23:16									#80
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quote: both of these sentences sicken me each time when i hear them

Why does insh' allah sicken you? All it means is 'God willing'. It's a saying.

	21-11-2003 23:32									#81
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insh'allah, Gott Bench America!

	21-11-2003 23:38									#82
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quote: Actually, Turkey is the only country that has enshrined secularism as a clearly stated and defined principle in its constitution, thereby closing all institutional ways and byways or loopholes for religious extremists to work their way into state structure.

That might be true, but that also wasn't what Rufus asserted.

quote: And needless to say, Islam has a history of being political. It was (and still is in some places) inconceivable throughout Islamic history to imagine Islam to be something not covering every aspect of human activity. Social contracts, relation of the individual towards the state, legal system, economy and by default politics were never thought in any way different or seperate from the practice of religion.

And yet, most Moslems live in secular societies (and choose to do so) and are getting along just fine.

quote: In light of this prevalent and suffocating interpretation of Islam, Turkey cut the Gordion's knot instead of trying to fit modernity into the tight shirt of obsolete tradition, as the vast majority of Muslim countries try with varying degrees of success today. How dangerous an alternative is that for AQ?

I don't think it's such a "dangerous alternative" for al-Qaeda. If anything, it gives Islamist terror groups a nice recruiting boost - liberate the secular infidels and whatnot. And it tends to lead people to blame secularism when they're dissatisfied with the gov't (Algeria comes to mind).

quote: There are in the Muslim world varying degrees of secularism, some declare Islam as state religion. Some like Indonesia fall short of that but lacking a state commitment to secularism, there's a growing pressure on the government to adopt Islam as state religion. You don't have that in Turkey.

Despite the current gov't being mildly Islamist? Despite the military having to pull of a coup whenever the gov't goes outside the bounds of secularism? I think you're overstating the committment to secularism of the Turkish people.

quote: Bangladesh has Islam as official state religion since 1988.

Which means very little. Bangladeshi civil law is a variant of English/Indian civil law, not sharia. Freedom of religion is enshrined in the constitution. Thus, it's a secular state.

quote: In all fairness compare Turkey with any other Muslim country and you should call it democratic.

On the contrary, that is hardly true. I'll bring up Bangladesh again; it doesn't ban parties that are too Burmese (insert whatever ethnic minority you want), or too leftist, or too Islamist. It hasn't been waging a campaign of ethnic cleansing throughout the past few decades. The military is in no position to pull off a coup if it disagrees with the civil authorities.

	22-11-2003 01:23									#83
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat The bottom line is, I think there are some cases where self-defense is appropriate. To never ever be willing to defend your life or the lives of people you love, no matter what, is utterly idiotic IMO.

And what does this have to do whatsoever with this thread? Please, do explain the line of reasoning that brought this line of debate about- I can sort of guess, but I do not want to be incorrect in my assesment.

	22-11-2003 12:53									#84
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quote: And yet, most Moslems live in secular societies (and choose to do so) and are getting along just fine.

Ramo: Sure, they do I don't mean they should emulate the Turkish system.

Let me try to elaborate more. As I tried to explain, Islam has a tendency to try to cover all aspects of human activity. Muslims learn never to question Quran, and by extension anything Islamic.

There are also in Muslim societies many who take it upon themselves to "explain" to people what Islam "thinks" about any given issue (is cigarette forbidden? Can we print Quran using the printing machine which is invented by infidels, as ridicilous as it sounds thousands of questions like that). People have a habit of listening to them (sometimes they are the mullahs, sometimes the imams, sometimes whonot)without much questioning. Then when they also talk about the government is not doing things right, when they claim they are "against Islam", people rally around them never even thinking they have just been politicised using religion. Hence, even if at any given time in the past or present, any Muslim society might be "getting along just fine", there is always the potential danger that the religious people will hijack the agenda and force the hand of government.

Therefore, it is a grave mistake to just look at the current situation in any given country and seeing things getting along reasonably fine, and then to say if it ain't broke don't fix it.

You may still disagree with me, but I'm not saying everybody should do as Turkey did, as it was quite a miraculous achievement in Turkey. But short of the degree of seperation of state and religion the way it is exercised in Turkey, there's always a danger of fundamentalist backlash in times of crisis for any given Muslim country.

quote: I don't think it's such a "dangerous alternative" for al-Qaeda. If anything, it gives Islamist terror groups a nice recruiting boost - liberate the secular infidels and whatnot. And it tends to lead people to blame secularism when they're dissatisfied with the gov't (Algeria comes to mind).

In light of what I've written above, that's exactly why it's a bad example. Regardless of the chances of any country taking Turkey as an "example", the very existence of a Muslim country that shuts down religion from so many aspects of public life as opposed o historical and current practice is an anthithesis to the AQ idea of setting up a global Muslim domain practicing a Taliban-like administration. I don't know if I could make myself clear here.

Algeria is a perfect example of how fundamentalists can take advantage of a crisis. No matter how "Islamic" you are, if ypu are not as "Islamic" as the fundamentalists themselves, they will always accuse any government to be "secular infidels". If this sounds exasparating, that's in fact the whole sick mindset I'm trying highlight here.

	22-11-2003 13:03									#85
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quote: Despite the current gov't being mildly Islamist? Despite the military having to pull of a coup whenever the gov't goes outside the bounds of secularism? I think you're overstating the committment to secularism of the Turkish people.

I think I might be understating it. The reason secularism as it was practiced in Turkey survived so successfully was not only the long shadow of the army. It was also because people never had a fundamental problem with it so as to rebel against it en masse. That's what freaks AQ out, the people are behind it. Support for Sharia is insignificant in Turkey.

Combining two quotes:

quote: Bangladeshi civil law is a variant of English/Indian civil law, not sharia. Freedom of religion is enshrined in the constitution. Thus, it's a secular state. On the contrary, that is hardly true. I'll bring up Bangladesh again; it doesn't ban parties that are too Burmese (insert whatever ethnic minority you want), or too leftist, or too Islamist. It hasn't been waging a campaign of ethnic cleansing throughout the past few decades. The military is in no position to pull off a coup if it disagrees with the civil authorities.

Freedom of religion in Bangladesh still does not make Hindus, Buddhists or Christians there not worry about the Islamic nature of the state. The very fact that the government felt it necessary to declare Islam as state religion is proof of pressure from the circles in the society that use religion as political leverage. An institutional safeguard is a better protection than any current state of affairs of calm.

Your implication of Turkey pursuing an ethnic cleansing against Kurds is plainly outrageous But so many people rely on stereotypes about Turkey

In a nutshell: There are some 10-12 million Kurds (in 70 million) in Turkey, majority of which lives in the predominantly Turkish western part of the area. The struggle against the PKK seperatists was never thought as a fight against Kurds in general. Kurds are not a monolithic body, they speak different dialects unintelligable to each other. In traditional areas, their allegiance lies to their tribes, not to a sense of nationhood. Many tribes supported the government against the PKK. Wrongdoings on the part of the army during this long struggle can in no way be described ethnic cleansing, if we understand the same thing from the word "ethnic cleansing".

I'm just plain astonished by such a simplistic assertion, putting Turkey in the same league with Milosevic's thugs

About party closings, the political arm of ETA is banned in Spain. ETA is an ethnic seperatist terrorist group. Closing down parties that act as political branches of terrorist groups is not a crime against democracy.