26-11-2003 17:47									#61
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Azazel East Germany indeed has improved ( but it now faces other problems) OTOH, the vast majority of the people of the SU have suffered immensly from the fall of the SU. You can talk about phones ( which haven't improved in most places, since that requires money that isn't there ), and we can talk about no central heating, no jobs, no food... and the ensuing crime, lack of personal safety, etc. etc.

But are these problems caused by the fall of SU per se, or by other issues, such as some nations getting their **** together (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czech, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia etc.) and others NOT doing that? Just how different were the SU systems in Baltics and rest of SU. Answer - not much.

	26-11-2003 18:55									#62
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Not much. But similar culture with europe, and proximity to it sure made it easier. The other new nations didn't have that advantage, and instead of a poorly managed system ( That DID have the potential to be good, but that's a different discussion), went to no system, and if any new system will be constructed, it will be imposed on those nations.

Facts are facts. People in the FSU suffer now, and suffer a lot. You know it and so do I. I am glad that the Baltics, Poles, and Chechs live better lives, but Russians don't, Ukrainians don't, and the Caucasians CERTAINLY do not.

	26-11-2003 19:17									#63
	Support Apolyton

--"Facts are facts. People in the FSU suffer now, and suffer a lot. You know it and so do I. I am glad that the Baltics, Poles, and Chechs live better lives, but Russians don't, Ukrainians don't, and the Caucasians CERTAINLY do not."

To put it bluntly, when you live off someones labor, you tend to live worse if they escape.

	26-11-2003 19:37									#64
	Support Apolyton

Yes, Because the baltics were the powerhouse of the SU, feeding it all.

	26-11-2003 20:59									#65
	Got spare money?

Take a ****ing hint - they WERE.

	26-11-2003 21:06									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Azazel OTOH, the vast majority of the people of the SU have suffered immensly from the fall of the SU. You can talk about phones ( which haven't improved in most places, since that requires money that isn't there ), and we can talk about no central heating, no jobs, no food... and the ensuing crime, lack of personal safety, etc. etc.

That strikes me as being more the fault of the incompetent rule of the USSR rather than its fall. How would things have been better had the system fallen later than it did?

	26-11-2003 21:36									#67
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Take a ****ing hint - they WERE.

rriight.

quote: That strikes me as being more the fault of the incompetent rule of the USSR rather than its fall. How would things have been better had the system fallen later than it did?

Maybe if it wouldn't fall at all, all those things would still exist?

	26-11-2003 21:49									#68
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: That strikes me as being more the fault of the incompetent rule of the USSR rather than its fall. How would things have been better had the system fallen later than it did? Maybe if it wouldn't fall at all, all those things would still exist?

It was inevitable by the mid-80's.

	26-11-2003 22:05									#69
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It was inevitable by the mid-80's.

Mid 80s? It was inevitable at around 88', I think.

	26-11-2003 22:11									#70
	Suffering from ads?

Now short of any further quibbling do you have a realistic answer to the question I asked earlier?

How would things have been better had the system fallen later than it did?

	26-11-2003 22:57									#71
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Az, just read what Vagabond said:

quote: Furthermore, if the USSR didn't desintegrate in 1991, the situation would now be even worse. Well, at least for Russia

	27-11-2003 12:40									#72
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Azazel rriight. [q

I stand corrected - but only in terms of grain. Most of the meat and meat products, plus canned fish came from the Baltics.

	27-11-2003 12:59									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Iki pasimatymo

Attachment: antilithuania.jpg
This has been downloaded 71 time(s).

	27-11-2003 14:21									#74
	Suffering from ads?

whos that?

	27-11-2003 14:30									#75
	Full PM-box? Change here!

President Rolandas Pakas.

	27-11-2003 14:54									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar President Rolandas Pakas.

	27-11-2003 14:58									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It's my first "major" photoshop

	27-11-2003 15:17									#78
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

And you chose a shitty president for that

	27-11-2003 15:55									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Don't worry. Didn't you see the missile in the background?

	27-11-2003 16:20									#80
	Increase the size of your Attachments

No. It's stealth The Rooskies sure keept their military secrets well.

	27-11-2003 17:14									#81
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Saras I stand corrected - but only in terms of grain. Most of the meat and meat products, plus canned fish came from the Baltics.

Saras is correct

	28-11-2003 12:23									#82
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by laurentius Saras is correct

I forgot dairy products. Our dairy industry shrank by 3 times, and we're still producing over 2x what we consume. Same or worse in Lat and Est.

	30-11-2003 11:52									#83
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Saras Originally posted by paiktis22 The fall of the SU brought pain and misery to a lot of people. 0.01/10

10/10

Hi Saras,

	30-11-2003 12:03									#84
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Saras But are these problems caused by the fall of SU per se, or by other issues, such as some nations getting their **** together (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czech, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia etc.) and others NOT doing that? Just how different were the SU systems in Baltics and rest of SU. Answer - not much.

In times of SU in Baltic republics there was a highest standart of living among entire SU.

	30-11-2003 12:09									#85
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Saras Take a ****ing hint - they WERE.

The only thing I remeber from times of SU that had a label with Lithuanian language ( or it was Latvian?) on it, was "shproty" (canned little fish). Nothing else comes to mind.
Come on Saras, do you really believe that Baltics feed 300 millions of Soviet population?

	30-11-2003 19:19									#86
	Tired of ads?

What are you talking about Serb? Everyone knows Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are the breadbasket of the Russian world.

	01-12-2003 04:45									#88
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Perhaps they had the biggest GDP/capita and thus payed most taxes?

I would not be surprised. Relative "richness" of a territory is an attribute that takes long to build up, and usually doesn't change with the change of system (capitalism->communism).

	01-12-2003 13:34									#89
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Serb The only thing I remeber from times of SU that had a label with Lithuanian language ( or it was Latvian?) on it, was "shproty" (canned little fish). Nothing else comes to mind. Come on Saras, do you really believe that Baltics feed 300 millions of Soviet population?

Doh, there were no Lithuanian labels. And of course they didn't feed 300 people. You grew your own grain and cought most of your own fish, but meat, cheese and poultry came mostly from Baltics.

	01-12-2003 13:58									#90
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The fall of the roman empire have the same impact, than the upcomeing fall of the Evil America Empire will have the same impact on America.