23-11-2003 15:19									#31
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quote: Calling the US as quasi-fascism is what those who prefer to live in fantasy like to say.

I didn't say the US was quasi-fascist... I said it was on its way to quasi-fascism.

And it is. The founding fathers would be appalled by the state this government is in! It just keeps getting bigger and bigger and the Republicans are as hypocritical about making it smaller as the Democrats are zealous about making it larger.

Our politicians have sold us out for the sake of their own comforts. Between government subsidies, welfare, social security, and an oversized military budget, we are well-on our way to completing the National Socialist dream in the sense of the economy and the relationship between individual and state.

Personally, I've lost faith in the system. I think nothing short of a complete overthrow of the system can return us to the way the government should be, the way it was designed to be... not as a goddamned caretaker and moral guardian. The government has no responsibility protecting peopl from themselves or making sure there's a chicken in every pot, or making sure that every industry has a big bundle of cash to fall back on in hard times... it's only responsibility is to protect people from other people. Period.

I don't even think the government should be in the business of education.

	23-11-2003 20:05									#32
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Of course, for a country to be socialist, it has to be like Scandanavia , which of course is a evil socialist/communist land where nobody works, everybody is on welfare, and people do nothing but have premarital sex, do drugs, and play volleyball all day

For Thor's sake, it's handball, and given enough drugs, we play it in Viking costumes. You got the general idea right, though.

	23-11-2003 20:48									#33
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One abbreviation:

PNAC

	23-11-2003 22:13									#34
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No, because the United States has no tradition of dictatorships, monarchy (they never exerted control over the colonies), etc... to at all precedent some kind of Nazi take over of the country. While other countries that have had dictatorships (Germany, Japan, Italy, etc) all have had traditions of oligarchy/dictatorship to warrant it.

And believe it or not, but the religious groups that founded the US (puritains, quakers, etc...), while hardliners, were actually socially very progressive, ie against slavery, against poor laws (throw poor in jail), for womens suffrage, for black slave compensation (as early as the mid 1700s for the Quakers).

So in other words, even though anything is possible in theory, the chances of anything like that coming to fruition in the United States today are logically and historically insignificant.

	23-11-2003 22:55									#35
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I agree with shawnmc. The religious zealots are growing in numbers, they have become united in a crusade, and they are gaining power. Laws are being passed that are making our government less democratic all of the time and are violating people's rights, and this is justified by the religious fanatics, who claim "It's so those Arabs don't cause anymore terrorist attacks" etc. etc. Or the government starts passing laws because they fit into the Christian doctrine well and then it is justified by the religious fanatics' narrow minded view of the Bible, and they claim the law needs to be passed because it is the "right" thing to do (pardon the pun). The bad laws of this country fit under this description.

The conservative religious folk in the south had slaves and stripped them of their human rights. Millions of Africans' lives were ended or completely destroyed by slavery. And the southerners justified the law by saying: "And then God made their skin black because they sinned" or whatever it was.

For a long time women were prejudiced against by the laws and people of our country. This was because "Eve sinned first."

Now there are laws against homosexuals being married. These laws are ridiculous. The rest of the world is realizing that the reason they exist is just because of prejudices by the Church, so the other countries are repealing the laws. But of course Bush and his religious zealots don't want to because they don't want to allow the people to do anything against the teachings of the Bible.

These laws all have something in common. It is the religious fanatics justify bad, undemocratic laws because they want to not allow people to go against the Bible or something similar to that.

So, I am afraid the gov will start passing more and more laws that hurt minorities (like Arabs) and more laws to take power for themselves and the religious fanatics will justify it by saying "the gov needs to take control for moral reasons, and so they can protect us."

Bingo. We have a quasi-fascist state.

	23-11-2003 23:50									#36
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If a constitutional amendment was actually passed against gay marriages... I think I might have to bump up my departure plans. I'm not gay, but if the constitution has to get marked up with all of this petty bullsh*t, then its time to leave.

	24-11-2003 00:24									#37
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I'm waiting to see what happens when al Qeada makes a big attack in Europe. It's bound to happen eventually.

	24-11-2003 01:26									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I'm waiting to see what happens when al Qeada makes a big attack in Europe. It's bound to happen eventually.

This is really annoying. It has been proven by the MIT that if a sufficiently large number of people wish for something to happen, then it will actually happen. This has something to do with the fact that reality is not an objective construct, but is the mirror of humanity's collective consciousness.

I have been noticing lot of rightwingers who have been saying, well if this happens or that happens then people will understand. They are not basing their justification of policies on objective factual events, but seek justification on current policy in what might happen in the future. This ties in with the rejection of the most basic chronological analysis of historial events. Conflicts, like the one in Palestine are not discussed as the result of specific cause and effect chronology, but as a confused bungle of anachronistic events interchangable in cause and effect, which magically always excuses one or the other side from complicity. This sort of willful irrationality is hurtful to any real solution to solving the issue.

This ties very well into the whole all-encompassing nature of the arachnid bureaucratic structure of the post-modern theocratic world. A bureaucratic construct knows not the meaning of time, since it is supposed to stand for time eternal.

	24-11-2003 01:30									#39
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I'm amazed that nothing really has happened in Europe yet.

	24-11-2003 01:33									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II I'm amazed that nothing really has happened in Europe yet.

Knock on wood.

	24-11-2003 01:33									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II I'm amazed that nothing really has happened in Europe yet.

There were a couple of close calls though.

	24-11-2003 02:18									#42
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Europe has had plenty of terrorism. Islamists in Paris, German and Italian ultra-leftist, IRA, the Basques etc. And more recently Istanbul, which is located in Europe even if most of Turkey is not.

I was only 24 hours away from being blown up in Paris some years ago. If I had travelled one day later, I would have been a passenger of the train they bombed.

	24-11-2003 02:21									#43
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When was this? (The train bombing).

	24-11-2003 02:26									#44
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Must have been mid 90's. July 1995 IIRC.

Last edited by Chemical Ollie on 24-11-2003 at 03:42

	24-11-2003 03:30									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Europe has had plenty of terrorism. Islamists in Paris, German and Italian ultra-leftist, IRA, the Basques etc.

There were extreme rightist terrorism in Italy too. And let us not forget all the racist firebombings and assasinations in Sweden and Germany for example.

	24-11-2003 03:36									#46
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Nazism? Not at all.

Fascism? Slightly more probable, but still not really.

Gradual but limited repression and an equivalent reduction of rights for a temporary period (which may be shorter or longer, depending on a lot of stuff)? It's definitely probable, but again, a lot depends on the circumstances of the attack, the administration, etc..

	24-11-2003 11:03									#47
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quote: since we were already there, and since large parts of the country were rebelling against the gov't, we should've finished the job.

Again, would have been contrary to UN mandate. It seems the lefties want the US to violate UN mandates sometimes but not others .

quote: Actually, it will not be Nazism but a quasi-religious right-wing state more akin to a Christianized version of Iran.

quote: I didn't say the US was quasi-fascist... I said it was on its way to quasi-fascism.

The paranoid wackos have entered the building. Yes, a Christian version of Iran, because, of course, the US was NEVER more religious than this point in history .

quote: No, because the United States has no tradition of dictatorships, monarchy (they never exerted control over the colonies), etc... to at all precedent some kind of Nazi take over of the country. While other countries that have had dictatorships (Germany, Japan, Italy, etc) all have had traditions of oligarchy/dictatorship to warrant it. And believe it or not, but the religious groups that founded the US (puritains, quakers, etc...), while hardliners, were actually socially very progressive, ie against slavery, against poor laws (throw poor in jail), for womens suffrage, for black slave compensation (as early as the mid 1700s for the Quakers). So in other words, even though anything is possible in theory, the chances of anything like that coming to fruition in the United States today are logically and historically insignificant.

I quote this post, because it is a wonderful counter to the wackos on this thread convinced an American Hitler is coming up right now

	24-11-2003 12:21									#48
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Imran, read the Patriot Act. Then look at Ashcroft's wish list for the Patriot Act II. Then look at the stated opinions of the various judges Bush is grooming for the Supreme Court. He clearly stated that Scalia and Thomas are his kind of justices. Personnel liberty is under a real threat from this administration and the post World Trade Center fear hype.

Also, I never said that we are in greater danger than ever before. Both the Lincoln and Roosevelt adminstrations were major threats to liberty, and ask Native Americans about the Jackson adminstration. The McArthy era has alot in common with today, and engaged in the same types of assault on personnel freedom, using the same rhetoric and smear attacks on their opponents. If you want to look at conservative Christian based intolerance, let me remind you that the Constition specifies there can be NO religious test for office. Now I wonder why they would put that clause in there. Just for decoration, I guess .

Alot of what happens depends on the next five years. If the Bush adminsitration continues in power, along with the increasing radicalization of the Republican party with deliberate targeting of Republican moderates, coupled with Neoconservative/Republican control of the federal legislature, personnel freedom will be at risk.

We could have five justices similiar to Scalia, and that man frightens me. Go read his dissenting decisions, especially where he disagrees with Rehnquist! He does not believe in individual rights, just corporate, prosecutorial/law enforcement, and state governement rights. Any personnel rights are those that are left over.

Please note, some of you opposed to the idea that freedom is eroding fixate on the posts concerning Hitler and/or Nazis. Straw man technique, only some of us used that example, and Imran used it after quoting me. Selective mismatching quotes of various posters who disagree with you is dishonest - please note I DISAGREED with the Hitler/Nazi example . Of course we are not in danger of a Hitler-esque takeover.

I use Iran as an example, post-rebellion pre-EU Ireland would have been a better example, where a select relegious group essentially gets to vet the laws. I used Iran because of the FISA court provision in the Patriot Act, which definitely qualify as a secret, semi-immune body, which Ireland did not have at the time (actually, Eire - Northern Ireland is an entirely different situation). Look up how the FISA court orders work under the Patriot Act, look up what happened to the peace activists when they were red-flagged by the potential terror database, and then tell me that there is no threat.

Oh, new news item. The Federal Government is now encouraging the surveillance of peace activists, and wants to share/gain similar info from local law enforcement. Except it isn't exactly new,

http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2002-11-21/news.html

but now it's official. Now who's alarmist?

	24-11-2003 14:31									#49
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Guantánamo Bay;
US citizens arrested and held w/o charges incommunicado for months on end for (presumably) suspected terrorist links;
Foreign nationals in the US arrested and held w/o charges incommunicado for months on end for (presumably) suspected terrorist links;
General erosion of human rights;
Terror Alerts designed to keep citizens on edge;
Foreign nationals in the US arrested and deported to nations known to use torture;

... business as usual in the USA ? Not the USA I used to travel to and rather liked ...

	24-11-2003 16:51									#50
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In reference to the replies to my post , I would like to clarify . It was meant to be sarcastic , for god's sakes . I know as well as you that the US is not even close to fascism . It is , however , becoming more paranoid and closed as a society . This is a natural consequence of terrorism , and will pass with time .

And yes , the freedoms people enjoyed are have reduced , to some extent . Also , an element of fundamentalist , ultra-conservative xenophobia seems to have entered the collective subconscious in some subtle way . This much is evidnet by the increasing frequency of bigots and bigoted ideologies . This is born of the US vs. Them attitude fostered by the wars and the lack of support from the rest of the world .

And the government is also moving towards more control over the private lives of it's citizens , as shown in the examples im my post , and those of shawnmmcc and Uncle Sparky .

	24-11-2003 21:13									#51
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quote: Imran, read the Patriot Act. Then look at Ashcroft's wish list for the Patriot Act II. Then look at the stated opinions of the various judges Bush is grooming for the Supreme Court

I have and I don't see the big deal.

quote: We could have five justices similiar to Scalia, and that man frightens me. Go read his dissenting decisions, especially where he disagrees with Rehnquist! He does not believe in individual rights, just corporate, prosecutorial/law enforcement, and state governement rights. Any personnel rights are those that are left over.

I have read Scalia a lot. While he frightens you, he happens to be my favorite justice. And, of course, as you have consistantly done, you go off the deep end again. Read some of his first amendment opinions and tell me that he doesn't believe in an individual rights. Simply because he doesn't think the judicially made-up doctrine of 'procedural due process' is actually in the Constitution doesn't mean he is against the individual rights in the Bill of Rights.

quote: some of you opposed to the idea that freedom is eroding fixate on the posts concerning Hitler and/or Nazis.

Well if you read the title, you can understand why.

quote: I use Iran as an example

Which is just as moronic as a Hitler style takeover... in fact it is even more fanciful .