25-11-2003 16:38									#31
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Funny how people are so different... I tried the Mayans 7 times in a row, thinking I'd have fun with their UU. Got my bottom kicked... didn't even notice they were agri, didn't really care, actually, 'cause the incas wouldn't leave me alone long enough to grow anything. I now hate them...

Then I just started playing random everything and just got the Dutch for the first time. (Random usually sets me to be Egypt for some reason????)

Never thought of playing the Dutch before 'cause, well, the only games I reload from the start are the island maps 'cause I really hate the tedium of trying to move troops overseas (200 years to cross an ocean? Big freaky ocean!!) so seafaring is a wasteful trait for my game style.

Anyway, the Dutch UU is the only reason why I'm still alive... I only have 2 of my original 7 towns with more than 10 pop, the other 5 are only 6/7 pop; the Mongols have 11 towns, most about size 7, 2 of them are size 9/10... so I'm not sure what benefit the agri trait has given me?

(But, then again, perhaps I just don't know how to milk the traits correctly... I usually just play the game and don't pay attention to the traits too much.)

	25-11-2003 16:59									#32
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interesting debate, and while I don't own conquests yet, from what you guys say Ag seems to be quite a powerful trait indeed, and still decent on 'bad' maps.

However, if it really can be considered overpowered (and with desert irrigation +1 and +1 per town it is already on par with the rest, imo), maybe a solution could be increasing the usefulness of the other traits, instead of decreasing this one?
When I first started with Civ3 (PtW already), I played SMAC/X a lot before, and was quite surprised to see how little difference difference between the cultures Civ offers in comparison to the SMAC/X factions. Sure, the traits add some special flavor, but it gets nowhere near the bonuses those factions got, and still they were mostly balanced.

As an example, I'll try to make a suggestion for powering up the other traits - except for seafaring, as i don't know the exact benefits at the moment. Note that those are just examples, and will most likely not be balanced.
Commercial: less corruption, as in PtW (-15% ?), +1 income per town, +3 per city, +6 per metro, half-priced banks and stock exchanges (but not markets), income from wall street doubled (10% instead of 5%).
Expansionistic: scouts and huts as usual, half-priced FP and courthouses, 10 free shields in newly founded and captured towns after construction (or some other tech).
Industrious: double speed workers (as in PtW), half-priced power plants (all of them), -1 upkeep cost for factories and power plants. +1 shield per town, +2 per city, +4 per metro.
Militaristic: No upkeep for barracks, upgrade cost 2 per shield as in PtW. Half-priced barracks, harbors and increased promotion chances as before.
Religious: add +1 culture for temples, cathedrals, +1 happy face per city, +2 per metro (= 7th and 13th citizen born content). Half-priced temples/cathedrals and 1-turn anarchy as usual.
Scientific: vastly increase chances for SGLs, maybe to around 8% (normal is 3%, isn't it?). Add another 20% to the total science spending (in the F1 screen). Cheaper libraries, universities, research labs (50%), free tech at age advance as usual.
Agricultural: (it may actually be too weak then) double-speed irrigation (2 turns, 1 if industrious), may irrigate anywhere (as with electricity).

Back to the topic: while i think Ag is quite strong, and goes a long way with a 'good' start, in SP it is not too powerful. If a player chooses his starting position anyway, he gets more than average out of it, but if not, he doesn't. Considering MP, for a PBEM that may take a while you may want a customized map anyways, another (non-participating) player could give everyone roughly equal and not too good positions.

	25-11-2003 18:00									#33
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quote: Originally posted by mimi Never thought of playing the Dutch before 'cause, well, the only games I reload from the start are the island maps 'cause I really hate the tedium of trying to move troops overseas (200 years to cross an ocean? Big freaky ocean!!) so seafaring is a wasteful trait for my game style.

I am just doing very well as the Dutch. I got a decent start with quite a lot of plains and desert but access to fresh water. The Ottomans nearby had difficult access to water, all plains and only managed 3 cities to my 6 at which point they blocked my expansion so had to go. If you can do it irrigating desert for 2 food is a huge boost on a favourable map.

Seafaring? So far (turn 230) I have built 1 curragh and that's it. Swiss mercenary? Awesome. The AI just doesn't even bother to attack them most of the time.

	25-11-2003 20:44									#34
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The first game I played was as the Maya, and that +1 food from irrigated desert was a big deal. Instead of having a barren wasteland due south of my capitol, I fit 3 size 12 cities down there.

I think it's early yet to decide whether or not the trait is balanced. I like the trait, of course, but that doesn't mean it isn't too strong. Dom may be right. But I think we need more playing to really get a feel for it. Perhaps an AU comparison game (same start, same opponents, once with a Agr civ, once without? Map knowledge a problem, hmm, maybe divide into 2 groups, one playing the Agr civ, one playing the "control" group).

-Arrian

	25-11-2003 20:50									#35
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I agree with Arrian. We need some solid testing before we start advocating for changes - I like the AU Comparison game idea. That's even something we could probably do with the existing bugs.

	25-11-2003 22:31									#36
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Great analysis, Dominae. I believe you are dead-on with your points about agricultural.

Of course, as usual, these points were really directed at the SP game. As someone with hundreds of MP games under my belt, I can say that agricultural is NOT overpowered in that environment. The reason it's not is the same reason why it IS overpowered in the SP environment - reloads. In MP, that option isn't there; you're stuck with your start. Believe me, I've played agricultural in MP without access to fresh water. Bad, bad news.

I agree with your solution to the problem as well. This would not really affect the MP environment as most games don't make it very far past despotism.

Of course, the only "bone" I have to pick has to do with the 2-cattle start. I understand your point, but in that case I would argue that it doesn't matter what your traits are. Even if you do play agricultural, that IS a good start.

	27-11-2003 08:30									#37
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Dumb question. Why are rivers so much more important to the Agricultural civ than other civs? To allow it to expand easily to 12 prior to Construction?

	27-11-2003 09:05									#38
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That ability to grow to size 12 without Aqueducts applies to all civs who settle on rivers. For Agricultural civs in particular, they get 3 food for the city square if they are next to a river, even when in Despotism. Normally in Despotism if you have 3 or more of any of food/shield/trade in any square you get one food. resource or trade less. So for Agricultural civs in Despotism, the centre square only gives them two food. This Despotic penalty is waived for cities on rivers however, automatically giving river cities the +1 food for Ag civs.

	27-11-2003 09:21									#39
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Aha, gotcha! Thanks for the clarification, it wasn't clear from the rulebook and I haven't experimented with an Ag civ yet.

I know all civs get the aqueduct bonus when on rivers, btw. My rationale had been that because Ag civs grow faster, they would bump up against the 6-limit faster. I had been under the impression that any Ag city anywhere would receive 3 food in the center square, even in Despotism. I didn't know it was only those cities on rivers.

	27-11-2003 09:23									#40
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No problem. If you read through the thread again, you will see some debate on whether even this much is too powerful, and some discussion on how to dumb it down to more inline with other civ traits.

	27-11-2003 17:49									#41
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Perhaps slightly off topic, but the imbalance of equal starting locations has bothered me somewhat since CIV3 was released.

The random map creator sometimes puts you on a tiny island when you've chosen pangea setting, differences in expansion abilities, imbalance in nearby available resources and luxuries, bad versus very good starting locations, etc ...

Haven't been MP-ing yet, but I'd like some map creators or Firaxis to focus on creating maps that offer much more balanced starting locations for all civs in the game in terms of expansion capabilities, balance between food and shield producing tiles, etc ...

BTW, can't say much about agri trait, Conquests should be available in Belgium tomorrow ...

AJ

	30-11-2003 00:43									#42
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Alright, I've done some testing at Monarch level, and even tried my first Emperor start(up to the end of peaceful REX) and I have to retract most of my arguments.

Agriculture, particularly in combination with starting with Pottery, is very, very powerful.

I'm not sure restarts should be taken into account when discussing balance, but that's about the only part of my argument I stand by.

Ag is a little overpowered and I hope that AU mods it to tone down the early game advantage a little bit.

You were right, Dominae, I was wrong.

	30-11-2003 06:18									#43
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I like Thrar's idea, but for another time (BTW, Seafaring has a 90% chance to start on the coast, gets +1 movement to all ships, has a decreased sinking chance, and gets +1 commerce in the center square when next to the coast. They originally had +1 food and +1 shield when on coast, but the Dutch got too big of a bonus with the combination Agr, Sea)

It was clear that Ind was overpowered as every team (except 2) in the Intersite Demo Game chose an Industrious civ. Firaxis chose last, and thier first 2 choices for Civs (Both Industious civ) were taken before they settled on Egypt.

I hope Agricultural won't become that powerful (having to decide Agricultural and what else). I like the idea of having the despotism penalty apply regardless of fresh water, though.

Anyway, I don't think re-starting should be factored at all into whether a trait is too powerful.

	30-11-2003 06:41									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Louis XXIV It was clear that Ind was overpowered as every team (except 2) in the Intersite Demo Game chose an Industrious civ. Firaxis chose last, and thier first 2 choices for Civs (Both Industious civ) were taken before they settled on Egypt.

But Egypt IS Industrious...

	02-12-2003 03:18									#45
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Exactly. They wanted the Ottomans (Industrious), but it was taken. Their second choice was Carthage (Industrious), and it was taken. So they picked Egypt (Industrious as well).

	02-12-2003 08:19									#46
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I don't have Conquests yet but starting with one extra food will make a significant difference to ones ability to REX. I say this on the basis of a little experiment I tried with Civ3.

I played a game with a cow in my starting location. I edited the map so the cow would be on a bonus grassland square and the addition of that extra starting shield made a most noticeable difference to the resulting power of my civilisation.

I wondered if an extra food would be better than an extra starting shield so edited the map again and replayed it. Once again the difference was very noticeable. (The food is probably better but I built my granary faster with the extra shield so I am not certain which is better.)

On the basis of this I would say that Agricultural will be extremely powerful with a river start, particularly if there are more suitable city sites on rivers nearby. Throw in half price aqueducts and the food bonus when you get out of despotism and you get an overpowered civilisation. What if you also started with Pottery? yikes!

OTH If there is no freshwater anywhere nearby one may be better off with some other trait instead of agricultural although the cheap aqueduct and food bonus will come when you eventually get out of despotism.

I think that, depending upon your starting position and surrounding terrain, agricultural could be anything from grossly overpowered to somewhat weak.

	02-12-2003 08:42									#47
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Agricultural is never "weak".

Once you switch to Monarchy or Republic (or Feudalism...), all your cities get the +1 Food in the city-centre tile, which helps get to very high pop very quickly when coupled with half-price Aqueducts. Those two abilities alone are trait-worthy.


Dominae

	02-12-2003 21:12									#48
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quote: What if you also started with Pottery? yikes!

This is a non-issue. 99.999999% of the time, no matter what Civ I play, I start out by researching Pottery at 100% and a build queue of Warrior-Warrior-Granary(sometimes have to use a prebuild)-Settler.

I think ultra-early granaries are at least as overpowered as Agriculture. Combined, it's early growth far beyond even the most rabid REXer, and the AI just can't cope.
Nerf granaries!