14-12-2003 10:00									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I do think that getting the Drones to ask for us would give PEACE the sense that they were uniting behind the Hive, rather than competing with it. My belief and hope is that they'd be more encouarged to support us if they knew that others were supporting us as well.

	14-12-2003 11:09									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I don't think the Drone's will be supporting us. And I don't think we should support the Drones either. We should try to get the governor ourselves. That's only my personally opinion though.

	18-12-2003 06:33									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You haven't considered the fact that we need to give the impression of a fragile power balance.

Asking the drones to ask the peace to vote for us disrupts that power balance in the minds of the other factions drastically. Making it so obvious will help catalyse an alliance against us.

Also does it really matter who gets governorship. The drones actually don't care that much and we should really unless we're interested in turn on the drones in the next 20 years.

	18-12-2003 09:12									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

My thinking is that it will be too obvious for other factions if it appears we don't care if we could get the governorship. Being pactmate is one thing, being in the real relationship as we are in is a entirely different issue. I believe once the Drones' started the governor election, we should all go out and at least appear to gather support for ourselves. The final result is not as important as the impression we give to the others.

	19-12-2003 13:18									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'm sorry I disappeared yesterday. I had a huge test to study for, and thought it best to stay away from distraction.

Kody, I'm still not sure about how to deal with Peace. It is obvious we need their support. Of course, I can't read minds. I'd just say bring up the subject next time (if ever) we have a turn chat.

	19-12-2003 15:42									#36
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Looking at the votes, the drones + hive combined votes is greater than university+ cycon+ pirates.

The AI will abstain as neither drones or hive have a pact or treaty with them.

So basically if we really wanted either the Hive to win. Then all we had to do was ask the drones to vote for us.

	19-12-2003 16:53									#37
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Octavian X My belief and hope is that they'd be more encouarged to support us if they knew that others were supporting us as well.

It usually has the reverse effect.
People tend to analyse this before they accept it - and if we've got drones looking for peace to form an alliance with hive, they're probably going to wonder:

"These Drones and the Hive have something going on."

If we don't tell them what we're trying to do, they'll be suspicious and not support us.
If we -do- tell them we're trying for supreme governor (shouldn't drop too much information) they're likely to either tell us to get screwed or pretend to play along, get some tech and info then pull out.

Unless it's clear that the Hive-Drones allegiance cannot be stopped, they will prefer to try to fight for the win themselves rather than settling for second best.
...Of course, they don't know we have such a tight allegiance, and it is better to keep some facts secret.

If we need the PEACE's support, I think, would be to contact their embassador and ask "Ya wanna help us do something?"
Not dropping that their help is required, but rather that we have a proposal which may interest them.
I'd suggest offering a smaller proposal (say some infiltration info trading) to see whether they're interested in helping us.

quote: Originally posted by Kody You haven't considered the fact that we need to give the impression of a fragile power balance.

Don't know what you mean by that, but I assume it means we don't let them build armor against our sledgehammer or cover their backs for daggers.

quote: Originally posted by HongHu My thinking is that it will be too obvious for other factions if it appears we don't care if we could get the governorship.

My bet is that if we shut up about the governorship we'll be doing exactly what the rest of the factions are doing. By ducking questions about the governorship we'll make it obvious, but if asked "Are you guys trying for supreme leadership?" We say "Are you looking for contenders?" - firmly planting the question back on them.

They know that the Drones and us are pactmates, so they can expect that we have motive to support each-other in the election.
We don't drop information by supporting each-other.

quote: Being pactmate is one thing, being in the real relationship as we are in is a entirely different issue.

Drones are lifelong pals, right?

quote: I believe once the Drones' started the governor election, we should all go out and at least appear to gather support for ourselves.

Does 'ourselves' include or exclude the drones?
In the Hive - Drone system you can bet we'd support a pactmate. Think of the commerce, people!
The most populous nation should try for governorship (is that us at the moment) so it doesn't look suspicious.
The idea would be to drop as little information as possible to gain whatever support we need.

quote: The final result is not as important as the impression we give to the others.

They know we're pactmates. Unless we do something stupid, Drones / Hive running for Governor means:
We want commerce
We want veto power
Being pactmates they know we're allied.
If we go for the governorship as soon as we can then we're also not giving much away as this is a standard thing to do.

What Impressions are we trying to avoid, exactly?


..........................................................................Edited by Googlie to align quotes
Edited by Enigma_Nova to avoid giving Googlie the last word

	19-12-2003 17:13									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hrmm well the departure of the university changes things alot.

Even I'm not sure what's going to happen now. Before we were worried about the other factions consolidating their efforts against the Hive.

The pirates demonstrated that they were in it for themselves, and consequently they alienated the cycon and probably the university too. We didn't want them joining forces with the university or the cycon.

The hive has been very friendly to the cycon, and they know we dislike the university. So our efforts have made a university and cycon alliance unlikely.

Basically the other 3 factions were quite divided and we wanted it to stay that way. Looking back I'm wondering if we did the right thing subtlely encourging the pirates to be anti-social and the cycon to not ally with the university. It made the diplomatic arena for the other factions frustrating and the hive-drone alliance is very over powered right now.

If we had let the other factions consolidate then the game would be more interesting and challenging for all involved. Also more fair...

	19-12-2003 17:34									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

use it and reap it, that's what I reckon.

You subtlely encouraged these factions to be antisocial? Good thinking, but how did you do it?

	19-12-2003 17:43									#40
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Simple really, the pirates started out anti-social, however the thing that would rein that in would be if they started seriously falling behind in tech.

So the hive simply traded them one or two important techs at a slight discount. They didn't have to learn to be nice, and it made them overconfident in their own superiority. Also I massaged their ego in various public forums and through the diplomacy.

With Cycon it was even simpiler. The hive liked them to start off with so we simply cultivated that. Also we treated them nicely compared to the pirates and university had a slow response rate to diplomancy. We simply made ourselves a better choice as an ally.

	19-12-2003 20:21									#41
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kody If we had let the other factions consolidate then the game would be more interesting and challenging for all involved. Also more fair...

Aha - so now you have come round to my position of a couple of months ago ...............

G.

	19-12-2003 20:31									#42
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kody Hrmm well the departure of the university changes things alot.

Did PEACE break pact with uni? I think I forgot to check that last turn.

Regarding the impression we want to give to others, I think we want to let them think that the two pacts we've got are not that much different. In other words, first we can't contact peace before our turn for we shouldn't have known the Drone's plan to call governor election (if we are not in a deep pact the Drones wouldn't have told us the plan beforehand). Second we should contact peace when we get our turn, not to bribe them using anything, just ask the question and appear to be testing the water. For being a pactmate they would be expected to support us. We would have already lost the chance to bribe drones to vote for us. Same thing with CC. We ask them to vote for us but not desperately so.

If we get the governorship as a result, it's good but if we don't, there's not a big difference.

However if we really do want the governorship then the whole thing should be handled differently. We need to tell CC and peace that we have this plan, and we have already got support from the Drones. And we actually ask the Drones to vote for us.

	19-12-2003 20:55									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Googlie!

Have you looked at the other player's turns.

The pirates are being run fairly badly, and the university while had their turn skipped. The cycon are going to war against the pirates.

The hive could probably win against the university and peace with just the cycon's help.

Before it was a likelyhood of victory, now it's just insanely easy with the way things are turning out.

Alot has changed in the last 5 turns, and I thought I was actually needed back.

	19-12-2003 20:59									#44
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Googlie,

Also in your opinion, has the hive done unusually well diplomatically, or just the other factions have done unusually poorly?

	19-12-2003 22:28									#45
	Put an end to popups!

Just read what happened at the University. What a bummer.

	20-12-2003 01:21									#46
	Suffering from ads?

BTW, regarding elections. Both AI factions will vote Miriam. The human factions that don't want us to win will vote for her too. We need at least 3 people to vote for us (apart from ourselves.)

-Jam

	20-12-2003 01:31									#47
	Increase Your PM Length

Dear Jamski, Miriam will not be a candidate for this election.

	20-12-2003 03:14									#48
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Jamski Jamski Jamski....

	20-12-2003 03:25									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This does achieve the purpose of confusing them the infiltrators.

Or perhaps if Jamski really care that much we could try call another election, say, the champion colony pod producer. The two candidates would then be her and us.

	20-12-2003 05:41									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

WE NEED MORE PODS DAMMIT! I CANNOT BELEIVE YOU FOOLS BUILT THEM BACK INTO OUR BASES!

We need more bases and MORE INDUSTRY not tech. Then we can pump units AND CRUSH THE DRONES! They have a chance of beating us to governor, so they must be REDUCED by a few bases.

FOOLS!

-Jam

	20-12-2003 07:42									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

*Octavian points to a pact document.

Then, it should be settled. In simple terms:

We ask the Drones and Cycon to vote for us, telling them something about an evil plot to crush Uni and PEACE.

We ask PEACE to vote for us, telling them something about an evil plan to crush Cycon and Uni. Maybe.

That, or my english classes have finally just made me go insane.

	21-12-2003 06:31									#52
	Tired of ads?

Message to Pirates. Humor and RP seeem to get to these people....

quote: Hercules and Flubber: Hello! I appear here in a leaky boat (all they could afford, apparently...) on behalf of the Hive to request for Peace's vote for the Hive in the currently underway Planetary election. We've not much to offer, unfortunately, execpt several barrels of xenorum, as well as this nice Hiveran Parrot (Parrot: Squack! Comrade Polly want a cracker! Squack! Workers of the world, unite! Squack!). Please, friend Pirates, consider our request fairly. ~Vice Chairman of Foreign Relations Octavian X

	22-12-2003 05:24									#53
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Kody Googlie, Also in your opinion, has the hive done unusually well diplomatically, or just the other factions have done unusually poorly?

On a scale of 1:10 (with ten the highest) I'd rate:

Hive 10
Drones 8
CyCon 7
PEACE 4
PUT 1

I tried to call in some IOU's for the PUT from some "heavyweights", but when they saw a saved PUT turn they declined!! Even I didn't understand Archaic's strategy

PEACE would have been higher had jdm continued as playmaker - or even Flubber, but I think Maka has made a couple of rookie mistakes that cost them

The Drones, under Buster, are of course doing OK, but like the PUT, there's absolutely no RolePlaying at all, which IMO detracts from them somewhat.

G.

	22-12-2003 07:56									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Octavian: What happens if Cycon / Peace contact each-other and find out they're being played off against each-other?

The simplest thing to do would be to offer our 'goodwill and friendship' in exchange for votes.
Chat to Cycon, Chat to Uni, Chat to Peace. Chances are the drones will vote for themselves.
Ask them whether they'd vote for the Glorious Hive on goodwill, and if they don't, "have a proposition".

If they try to get some tech from us, ask "What are the drones offering", confirm response with drones and exceed by a little.

If anyone tries to lie to us it's time for a vendetta smushin'.

	22-12-2003 09:15									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I wouldn't even do that. I sent Hercule an email the day when we submited the turn and said: "Btw we are calling the governor election. What stance would PEACE have?"

I also chatted Drogue and informed him about the election. I said we would be appreciate if they vote for us. I said we are contacting peace and drones and they may vote for us but even if everybody abstain we believe we'd be ok.

	22-12-2003 10:05									#56
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Enigma, as I understand the situation, at least Buster of the Drones has stated his support. Again, as I understand it, CC and Peace are fighting, or are preparing to do so, so I'm not concerned about the scenario you presented.

	22-12-2003 16:01									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: I tried to call in some IOU's for the PUT from some "heavyweights", but when they saw a saved PUT turn they declined!! Even I didn't understand Archaic's strategy

I thought Minute Mirage was doing the strategy for the university for the last couple of turns???

From the university infiltration and analysing Archaic's posts, I believe Archaic is following his strategy for fast transcend in single player. I think he was depending on the fact that the university naturally has a tech advantage, and believed he would be the first faction to MMI. Then he would roll over everyone else with high tech units.

I think it would have been better for the university to have waited until after environmental economics to change to planned. Also they should have switched some of those mineral crawlers to food as hardly any of his bases are growing.

I think the university is doing an early pop boom to get extra tech, as the fact that other factions are keeping up with the university techwise is probably frightening them.

However, booming in planned it's not really working because he not maintaining the food, or building enough children's creches.

I tried a experiment to see what would have happened if he was willing to golden age boom. It's rather difficult, even more difficult than it currently is for the hive. Also it is impossible golden aging from odd sizes if you have all drones in your bases, and if you try to use doctors that is the case.

Anyway I think his strategy was similar to that of his single player fast transcend. However, he's having trouble compensating for the faster development of human players.

quote: PEACE would have been higher had jdm continued as playmaker - or even Flubber, but I think Maka has made a couple of rookie mistakes that cost them

I can confirm that. Lots of rookie mistakes, although the turns are played better than some of the recent hive turns.

	22-12-2003 16:18									#58
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ohhh, when do people start dying? I gathered no actual interfaction battle had been conducted yet?

	22-12-2003 17:57									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It seems weŽll have to put up a fight if we want anything exciting to happen

	22-12-2003 20:18									#60
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Vev Ohhh, when do people start dying? I gathered no actual interfaction battle had been conducted yet?

You don't have to wait for too long.