26-11-2003 14:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker He invented explosive artillery shells and predicted it would end war? You've switched from explosive artillery shells to dynamite for some reason... But if he said that about either, it just shows genius is no guarantee of common sense...

He invented dynamite, then collaberated with the arms industries of a couple countries to create explosive shells because he believed the creation of such a destructive weapon would convince countries to never go to war again.

He later realized the err in his ways and dedicated his fortune to try and have people remember his name for something besides death and destruction. It seems he was successful in that end at least.

quote: No they aren't, ever go under the knife? How about the dentist? Aaaaaand they shouldn't be legal for just those situations...

Yes, because you can slip just any colorless, odorless, tasteless, easily concealable and producable sedative anesthetic into someone's drink...

quote: But why are the people who don't use it to commit rape being punished because of those who do? If that's the principle being employed, we should be punishing people for having guns, knives, cars, and every other thing in life that can be used to commit a crime.

GHB is used for the purpose of facilitating rape far more than a car or a knife is used for the purpose of harming someone. And good luck taking everyone's guns away.

	26-11-2003 14:09									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker No they aren't, ever go under the knife? How about the dentist? Aaaaaand they shouldn't be legal for just those situations...

You are being disingenuous, Berz. A knife is not a drug, neither is a dentist.

	26-11-2003 14:12									#33
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EDIT: I found out that at least here in Finland GHB is the number one date-rape or drink spiking drug, next are ketamin and roofies (rohypnol)

Last edited by laurentius on 26-11-2003 at 14:21

	26-11-2003 14:17									#34
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Flunitrazepam (Rohypnol) is more potent AFAIK.

	26-11-2003 15:18									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker So is booze, "liquer's quicker". So is a blunt instrument over the head, we don't make booze and blunt instruments illegal, we make rape illegal.

The point is that liquors not quicker. I cap full of GHB is all you need to drink to knock you over. Thats too easy to slip into someones drink. Combine that with the fact that GHB is fairly easy to produce and I can see why it was made illegal. Roofies and K are a bit tougher to come by.

GHB does have valid recreational use, if you consider recreational drug use valid that is.

A good site for in depth unbiased information about GHB is http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ghb/ghb.shtml .

	26-11-2003 15:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch It still makes sense to make illegal any method, substance or device whose clear and primary reason for existence is the commiting of a crime, with exemptions for reasonable use.

You are completly right, however thats not its main purpose for the vast majority of people who have access to GHB.

From Erowid GHB effects:

quote: Low Dose: A low dose of GHB (usually from .5 to 1.5 gms) often causes effects similar to those of 1-3 drinks of alchohol.

Would you rather drink a couple of pints of beer, or a couple of drops for the same effect? Supposedly the hangover is also much decreased when compared to alcohol. Bearing this in mind it is easy to understand why people want to use it.

	26-11-2003 16:49									#37
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Trip -

quote: Yes, because you can slip just any colorless, odorless, tasteless, easily concealable and producable sedative anesthetic into someone's drink...

I'm not getting an answer, why should people who don't slip others this drug w/o their knowledge be punished because of those who do? I can walk up to anyone on the street and slip a knife into them too, that doesn't mean people who own knives should be punished.

quote: GHB is used for the purpose of facilitating rape far more than a car or a knife is used for the purpose of harming someone.

Would you seriously argue more rapes have been facilitated with this drug than weapons like knives? And so what?

UR -

quote: You are being disingenuous, Berz. A knife is not a drug, neither is a dentist.

Re-read the quote, I wasn't comparing GHB to a knife or a dentist, I was pointing out that there are legal drugs that make people unconscience when they are "under the knife" or go to the dentist. I'm sure you've heard of the layman's phrase "going under the knife" for a medical operation.

Snotty -

quote: The point is that liquors not quicker.

And you've never heard the phrase "liquer's quicker"? It's a phrase some guys use in their effort to get laid by getting a woman drunk.

quote: I cap full of GHB is all you need to drink to knock you over. Thats too easy to slip into someones drink. Combine that with the fact that GHB is fairly easy to produce and I can see why it was made illegal. Roofies and K are a bit tougher to come by.

So people who use this drug should be punished because of those who use it to commit rape?

quote: GHB does have valid recreational use, if you consider recreational drug use valid that is.

I certainly do consider it valid because freedom is valid, and people who use it recreationally should not be punished because of people with nefarious motives.

	26-11-2003 16:49									#38
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And it doesn't damage the liver!

	26-11-2003 18:04									#39
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Having seen a couple of male friends go psychotic on this... I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

I understand that some MDMA users like GHB as a come down easy solution... they must be crazy.

	26-11-2003 18:41									#40
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GHB has been made illegal because of the public opinion. X date rapes among thousands and they say GHB's dangerous,...
It's just part of this stupid conservative drug policy,...

Anyway, buy GBL (a product to clean carpets). This substance changes to GHB in the body.

	26-11-2003 18:47									#41
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sshhhhh!

Besides, you don't know the doses and weights of that stuff. it's not pharmaceptical.

quote: Having seen a couple of male friends go psychotic on this... I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

What doses, and did the use alcohol with it?

	26-11-2003 20:15									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Re-read the quote, I wasn't comparing GHB to a knife or a dentist, I was pointing out that there are legal drugs that make people unconscience when they are "under the knife" or go to the dentist. I'm sure you've heard of the layman's phrase "going under the knife" for a medical operation.

You are still being disingenuous, Berz. Just because drug A can be used to do one thing, and drug B can also do the same thing, doesn't mean they should be treated the same way.

	26-11-2003 20:34									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 What else could it be used for?

Believe it or not, one of the original uses for GHB was as a bodybuilding supplement. The only problem is that instead of helping people gain muscle and lose fat it made them high.

	26-11-2003 21:18									#44
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That's a mighty good idea. So people will keep doing exercises just to take the supplement.

	26-11-2003 21:29									#45
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It somewhat enhances the release of the growth hormone, IIRC.

	26-11-2003 21:31									#46
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quote: Originally posted by rixxe Anyway, buy GBL (a product to clean carpets). This substance changes to GHB in the body.

No offense, but you'd have to be a real ****ing idiot to ingest carpet cleaner.

	26-11-2003 21:34									#47
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gooo chemists!

rixxe is right, I think, centrifuge, in the case of this particular carper cleaner. The problem is, god knows what else and in what quantities is thee.

	26-11-2003 21:47									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel gooo chemists! rixxe is right, I think, centrifuge, in the case of this particular carper cleaner. The problem is, god knows what else and in what quantities is thee.

Although I didn't say it, that was my main point. Aside from the fact that I really don't think that GHB is good for anything productive, to go around imbibing in household products is never a good idea. Just make sure that you have the number for poison control handy

	27-11-2003 01:16									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker And you've never heard the phrase "liquer's quicker"? It's a phrase some guys use in their effort to get laid by getting a woman drunk.

I know the saying, and perhaps I should have said 'liquors quicker, GHB's quickest' because it is. No more of that pesky waiting for women to get drunk when you can get the same effect with a capful.

quote: So people who use this drug should be punished because of those who use it to commit rape?

No, but if it would be much easier for a potential rapist to buy the stuff if it was legal. GHB is more difficult to get hold because it is illegal. If any ******* could walk into a store and buy this stuff it would lead to more rapes. Im sure you can see the link. It would also lead to more happy GHB users, but thats not worth the increased number of rapes.

quote: I certainly do consider it valid because freedom is valid, and people who use it recreationally should not be punished because of people with nefarious motives.

The reverse of your arguement is should women be punished (raped) just because people want to use GHB legally?

I dont mean to get on your case berz, Im all for legalization. Just not this one. Theres too many dicks in the world for this to be easily available.

	27-11-2003 01:21									#51
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quote: No, but if it would be much easier for a potential rapist to buy the stuff if it was legal. GHB is more difficult to get hold because it is illegal. If any ******* could walk into a store and buy this stuff it would lead to more rapes. Im sure you can see the link. It would also lead to more happy GHB users, but thats not worth the increased number of rapes.

You're kidding, right? A person can get any drug with fair ease. Legalizing it will not lead to an increase in the amount of rapes.

	27-11-2003 01:33									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker I'm not getting an answer, why should people who don't slip others this drug w/o their knowledge be punished because of those who do? I can walk up to anyone on the street and slip a knife into them too, that doesn't mean people who own knives should be punished.

If there are other anesthetics that work perfectly fine why legalize one that has such a horrible side effect?

You seem to think that people are responsible enough that if something has one "positive" use then it should be perfectly fine to legalize, despite the other ramifications which may ensue.

Should we allow monopolies in the economy because some monpolies are good? Or should we penalize the possible good monopolies because more end up being bad? Or how about automatic weapons. Or any number of other things which may have a "good" use when used responsibly but also have a dark side that makes it better for society because they're illegal and access is either restricted or prevented.

I'd sleep better at night with GHB illegal and knowing that a few rapes were prevented than if it were legal knowing some guys got a good high instead. You make it sound like some moral crusade or something... oh no, people can't get high, woe!

	27-11-2003 01:34									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: No, but if it would be much easier for a potential rapist to buy the stuff if it was legal. GHB is more difficult to get hold because it is illegal. If any ******* could walk into a store and buy this stuff it would lead to more rapes. Im sure you can see the link. It would also lead to more happy GHB users, but thats not worth the increased number of rapes. You're kidding, right? A person can get any drug with fair ease. Legalizing it will not lead to an increase in the amount of rapes.

So you personally can just as easily get GHB now as if it were legal and available to buy at your closest local pharmacy?

	27-11-2003 01:40									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You're kidding, right? A person can get any drug with fair ease. Legalizing it will not lead to an increase in the amount of rapes.

Sorry Az, but youre talking out of your arse. I cant lay my hands on crack, heroin or GHB. I cant even get some weed without calling around.

Youre saying any person can get hold of GHB as if it were legal? Im saying there are many dicks in the world who dont have those kind of contacts, but can do something as simple as walk into a shop.

	27-11-2003 01:58									#55
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If you want to, you'll get them, without doubt. That's what I meant.

	27-11-2003 02:06									#56
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Ok, I'll give you that. The determined rapist will no doubt be able to lay his hands on date rape drugs. The problem is the 'casual' rapist, if there is such a thing. The guys who would think its ok to put a legal drug in a girls to drink to help her 'relax' etc.

	27-11-2003 02:10									#57
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quote: GHB: why the hell is it banned?

I think it was for abuse of the upload policy on 'Poly

quote: I'm not getting an answer, why should people who don't slip others this drug w/o their knowledge be punished because of those who do? I can walk up to anyone on the street and slip a knife into them too, that doesn't mean people who own knives should be punished.

The drug could be used as any other anistesia, but unfortuantly the type of places that have this stuff (Vets, Hospitals, Doctors, Dentists, etc) have a high rate of crime associated with them for the expressed purpose of obtaining these drugs. If the only way to keep the drug off the street is to ban it, then ban it. There are other drugs that can be administered to receive the same effect. Unfortunately for the bad guys, they aren't as easy to conceal and administer unnoticed.

HOw is it different than a knife? A knife has multiple uses and besides, any one can make a knife, shiv, or other knife like item that banning them would serve no pupose. Also note that it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon, and most bars won't let you end if you are carrying a knife.

	27-11-2003 02:15									#58
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quote: The drug could be used as any other anistesia, but unfortuantly the type of places that have this stuff (Vets, Hospitals, Doctors, Dentists, etc) have a high rate of crime associated with them for the expressed purpose of obtaining these drugs. If the only way to keep the drug off the street is to ban it, then ban it. There are other drugs that can be administered to receive the same effect. Unfortunately for the bad guys, they aren't as easy to conceal and administer unnoticed.

You're still missing the point. The benefits from it far outweigh the risks, and those risks aren't exactly being prevented by the ban. capiche? therefore there is no reason that people that benefit from it, or hell, just want to get high on it, shouldn't be free to do so.

	27-11-2003 02:18									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You're still missing the point. The benefits from it far outweigh the risks, and those risks aren't exactly being prevented by the ban. capiche? therefore there is no reason that people that benefit from it, or hell, just want to get high on it, shouldn't be free to do so.

You honestly think it would be okay that more women got raped so more guys could get high?

	27-11-2003 02:22									#60
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"Gamma-hydroxy butyrate (GHB) is a naturally occurring substance that is nonaddictive and proven safe, yet FDA and media hype have prevented the public from reaping its benefits. GHB has been shown to improve sleep, encourage weight loss and muscle strength, enhance mood, improve sex, and possibly prolong life. "

Which of these benefits cannot be obtained by any number of OTHER non-addictive drugs, life style CHOICES, and diet that cannot also be used as rape aide?

-Don't know the answer?
-Don't know enough about all the other drugs available?

Let the FDA do their job.

Questioning is good, but only if you can understand the answer...