06-12-2003 16:16									#91
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I can go along with trying a straight change to 5/3/3 in the initial C3C version of the mod and seeing how we like it. For better and for worse, it's probably going to pretty much destroy the strategy I used to put away the "Son of SVC" game - a cavalry charge straight into the teeth of the leading AI's riflemen (but before Bismarck had time to finish upgrading). That could be a real problem trying to come back from a tech deficit. But in most of my games, I stop engaging in offensive warfare when the enemy gets Nationalism.

The other interesting twist is that eventually, AIs do tend to upgrade to mostly musketmen. In the Chasqui game Dominae posted, I researched through Navigation in order to open up transoceanic trade routes before going on to Military Tradition (with a detour through Steam Power, no less, while trying to build up my forces for upgrade). I had such a ridiculous tech lead that I still had plenty of time to wipe out the Mongols and kick the Dutch and Chinese off the continent, but but the Mongols and Chinese seemed to have practically all musketmen defending their cities. (The Dutch, of course, had their own special brand of menace for my cavalry to deal with.) In essence, the change is going to make delaying a cavalry blitz instead of beelining to Military tradition a bit less of an option for civs intent on cavalry conquest.

Nathan

	06-12-2003 16:23									#92
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i could live quite well with 5,3,3.

is the idea of reducing movement to 2 off the table?

	06-12-2003 17:27									#93
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Reduce the movement rate and I probably won't play with the AU Mod. Fighting with 3-move units is too much fun.

I just thought of a problem with having only a 5.3.3 version of cavalry. With the French musketeer now having a defense value of 5, cavalry will have as much trouble against those guys as they do against riflemen under normal rules. That will be annoying, to put it mildly when the French, happen to be in the way.

	06-12-2003 18:07									#94
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Not so annoying as playing against Greece in the ancient age.

	06-12-2003 19:50									#95
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I could handle 5.3.3.

	06-12-2003 22:49									#96
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Just reducing the attack of cavalry to 5 is a much larger change than the 2 unit option.

Unless we find that the AI really doesn't handle the zero-cost upgrade as well as it ought, I'd definately be in favour of the extra units.

	07-12-2003 00:42									#97
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Any changes to cavalry should take into account the C3C changes to Armies, given that you are also likely to be building the Military Academy, as they make Armies significantly stronger with bonuses to stats, extra movement and free pillaging

Therefore if cavalry are too strong, cavalry armies will be totally over top

Taking the cavalry movement down to 2 would seem OK ( as it can go back up when you put an Army together), leaving the 3 movement for UU's only

	07-12-2003 02:00									#98
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Reduce the movement rate and I probably won't play with the AU Mod. Fighting with 3-move units is too much fun. I just thought of a problem with having only a 5.3.3 version of cavalry. With the French musketeer now having a defense value of 5, cavalry will have as much trouble against those guys as they do against riflemen under normal rules. That will be annoying, to put it mildly when the French, happen to be in the way.

I agree that 3 move units are a lot of fun. The AI uses them pretty well which keeps me honest with defenders especially when other countries are sending troops through my terrority.

As for the point about the French it should be tough to make progress against the French during what is probably their Golden Age!!!! That is a feature not a bug.

	07-12-2003 02:55									#99
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Two things re theis most excellent thread:

* The AU Mod should NEVER require the installation of anything! Just download a 4000BC save and let'er rip. I feel very very strongly about this.

* I think we should start slow and simple... reduce Cavs to 5.3.3 and see how it goes.

	07-12-2003 03:05									#100
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5 attack also happens to be the value of Crusaders, which, when I've gotten them, tend to be quite successful against pikes, a mildly useful against Musketmen. So, basically, 5.3.3 cavs may work out, but it will need to be tested, as Theseus says.

	07-12-2003 04:18									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I think we should start slow and simple... reduce Cavs to 5.3.3 and see how it goes.

Just to be clear: Are you also for taking 1 attack point away from Cossack and Siphai, Theseus?

	07-12-2003 17:05									#102
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Yes.

	08-12-2003 19:34									#103
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Good idea Theseus. Better to start simple and build on/remove the idea as necessary than to over-complicate things from the get go.

	09-12-2003 05:52									#104
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So broad agreement is drop Cav to 5.3.3, and not yet bother with any "Trained Cavalry", or any such things?

	09-12-2003 06:11									#105
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I like that idea, THeseus.
Especially in light of some of the other threads, i.e. de-emphasizing the Nationalism->Communism line for the AI.
Little tiny pieces often cause surprising behavior to emerge.

	10-12-2003 15:43									#106
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well, the new patch changes _everything_!

a fortified musketman in a size 7-12 grassland town (4*(1+.1+.25+.5) = 7.4 defence) now has a clear advantage. in a city (4*(1+.1+.25) = 5.4) a more or less equal chance. cavarly won't have any chance against riflemen.

therefor i think a 6,3,3 are good stats.

with these changes, let's rediscuss everything from the beginning...

	10-12-2003 19:22									#107
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It's true! Veteran Cavalry after the patch will have just a 25% chance to defeat a Veteran Musket fortified in a grassland city, down from 39%.

And against Riflemen, forget it: down to 3% from 20%.

This is not necessarily a good thing for balance though, as Cavalry now defeats a fortified Veteran pikeman 90% of the time, up from 70%, and the AI has usually has mostly pikemen to offer against the human.

	10-12-2003 21:31									#108
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Put a different way, Cavalry versus fortified Spearmen are now more effective than Tanks versus fortified Spearmen used to be...

	10-12-2003 22:04									#109
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf well, the new patch changes _everything_!

Nevertheless, this discussion was excellent.

( ... waiting for the beta patch to try out 6.3.3 Cavalry vs. Musketmen ... )

	10-12-2003 23:36									#110
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And don't forget to look at what a Cavalry Army can do (extra attack, movement, pillaging etc)

	11-12-2003 00:49									#111
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oh, yeah... that makes armies even less beatable... even less HP losses in every battle. wow

	12-12-2003 03:55									#112
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alexman, now that the combat changes have been cut from the beta patch, you might as well start a poll about taking 1 attack point away from Cavalry, Cossack, Siphai.

	12-12-2003 06:35									#113
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Any panel member should feel free to set up a poll after the discussion is done, but here it goes anyway:

AU mod panel: You have 24 hours to vote on the following:

1. Yes/No: Reduce attack factor of Cavalry, Cossack, and Sipahi by 1?
   
2. Yes/No: If 1. results in a "Yes", reduce attack factor of Sipahi by an extra 1, and its cost by 10 shields?
   
3. Yes/No: If 1. results in a "Yes", add new Cavalry upgrade units to Nationalism, with identical stats as current Cavalry, Cossack, Sipahi?
   
4. Yes/No: If 3. results in a "Yes", increase cost of Nationalism Cavalry units by 10 shields.
   
5. Yes/No: If 3. results in a "Yes", use unique graphics for the Cavalry units at Military Tradition. This means maintaining a separate, second version of the AU mod with no extra graphics but identical game play.
   

	12-12-2003 06:39									#114
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My votes:
1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes
4.No
5.Yes

	12-12-2003 07:24									#115
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1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes
4.No
5.Yes

	12-12-2003 08:13									#116
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1. Yes.
2. No.
3. No.
4. No.
5. No.

How about we keep it simple for now (i.e. reduce Cavalry Attack to 5, and see how that goes)?

	12-12-2003 17:58									#117
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1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. No

Even though I've been playing with the upgrade at Nationalism in my own mod, I tend to agree with Theseus and Dominae that a more conservative approach is best for the AU Mod. Thus, I'd like to try just the reduction in Cavalry/UU strength, and reevaluate a possible upgrade at Nationalism at a later date.

	12-12-2003 20:15									#118
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1. Yes.
2. No.
3. No.
4. No.
5. No.

	12-12-2003 20:37									#119
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1: YES
2: NO
3: NO
4: YES
5: YES

Regarding '3': A Light Cavalry - Cavalry upgrade should be reconsidered at a later date. I'm all against a 'Light Cavalry / Light Siphai' approach because this means creating a second UU for two civs.

Regarding '5': I'm only for distinct graphics for the Light Cavalry, because that's the only new unit I'd possibly want to include.

	13-12-2003 02:17									#120
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I strongly agree with a simple reduction to 5-3-3. However, a cost reduction of ten could be in order.