04-12-2003 07:46									#31
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quote: I would be proud to be a liberal as an alternative to supporting a party that has frequently been caught in gaffs

As opposed to the man who can't speak either English or French as the Prime Minister? Remember the "proof" speech? Why do you think they call him the mangler?

Clearly, if one were to support the Liberals, gaffes are no good reason to stop supporting a party.

	04-12-2003 08:04									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi All-right. I apologise for the label closet liberal.

No need to apologise. It actually gave me a good giggle. I've had beer thrown in my face by a lefty for admitting to being a Tory too. Fired at from both sides makes me know I must be doing something 'right' in a middle of the road, Canadian sort of way.

re the PM, yes, the Mangler is such a good name for him, on so many levels. I think he 'proofed' that.

However, if you keep my words in context, you'll see that I don't see the repeated gaffs from the CA as harmless, or endearing in any way. I fail to see 'homosexuality should be illegal again' as harmless, whereas the Proof quote is just plain funny.

	04-12-2003 08:28									#33
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Harper sacked him and if he recants his statements, then I consider the matter closed. No one in politics has a clean record.

For example, look at Hedy Fry. She talked about crosses burning in Prince George when the only crosses they could be are hot-cross buns. She lied, and refused to recant her statement, and Chretien never disciplined her. Compare the difference in responses between the two parties.

	04-12-2003 09:02									#34
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This seems rather odd. How could polling support for Conservative parties be below 20%?

	04-12-2003 09:51									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader Now that Asher's not here I guess not.

What happened to Asher?

	04-12-2003 10:01									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Harper sacked him and if he recants his statements, then I consider the matter closed. No one in politics has a clean record. For example, look at Hedy Fry. She talked about crosses burning in Prince George when the only crosses they could be are hot-cross buns. She lied, and refused to recant her statement, and Chretien never disciplined her. Compare the difference in responses between the two parties.

There's a big difference between someone arguing that homosexuality should be made a crime and someone making a geographic mistake (the crosses were burnt in Williams Lake, not Prince George)

	04-12-2003 10:11									#37
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Ever hear of tourism?

Saying that they burn crosses in a community is a huge indictment! You better make sure they actually burn crosses before you go making a statement like that.

It's not that she got the place wrong, there were no crosses burnt to speak of. She lied to make a point about the intolerance of northern communities.

If you're going to make enemies like that you'd better have the facts to back you up.

	04-12-2003 11:03									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi This seems rather odd. How could polling support for Conservative parties be below 20%?

Because the Conservative movement has had it's guts ripped out and put on display during the last 20 years in Canada. It all started with this guy named Mulroney, who thought free trade was a good idea...

	04-12-2003 11:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai There's a big difference between someone arguing that homosexuality should be made a crime and someone making a geographic mistake (the crosses were burnt in Williams Lake, not Prince George)

Bull ****, and a good indication of why I would not dream of voting Liberal if Martin does not demonstrate a major change from the crap that the Mangler let go on.

It was a slur on Western Canada. One more in a long line of such slurs. Keep it up, and soon maybe Canada won't have to worry about any West outside of Thunder Bay.

	04-12-2003 11:20									#40
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quote: It all started with this guy named Mulroney, who thought free trade was a good idea...

Actually, Free trade's been good to us. Mulroney had a great idea called the GST, and the Meech Lake and Charlottetown Accords to amend the constitution.

His successor Kim Campbell didn't help one bit. Thus the Conservative party was destroyed by the mangler, and the tides of seperatism rose from Quebec.

	04-12-2003 11:23									#41
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quote: “We only have to look around the world today at Kosovo, at Macedonia, at Northern Ireland to know that people are still discriminated against in the world because of their race, their religion and their culture. We do not have to go too far. We can just go to British Columbia where crosses are being burned on lawns as we speak.” (Hansard, Mar 21) After Canadian Alliance MP **** Harris objected to the remarks in a Point of Order, Ms. Fry refused to retract her remarks. She said: “In British Columbia there have been incidents of hate crime, including cross burnings. I know this because I was contacted immediately that these incidents occurred by the mayor of Prince George….The community was duly concerned and duly appalled at the incident.” (Hansard, Mar 21)

So, why were her comments first about BC in general, and not Williams Lake, allowing for the fact that she was such a moron as to forget where these things had happened? And, wtf was she not fired immediately?

Oh, and btw...

http://fact.on.ca/news/news0103/np010331.htm

quote: So it turns out there has been a cross-burning in Canada in the past year. But not in Prince George. Or anywhere else in B.C. Or even by racists. The one and only recent example of a cross-burning was in Montreal last March. By feminists. On International Women's Day. On the steps of a Catholic cathedral...

Again, wtf was she not fired immediately?

	04-12-2003 11:32									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Actually, Free trade's been good to us. Mulroney had a great idea called the GST, and the Meech Lake and Charlottetown Accords to amend the constitution. His successor Kim Campbell didn't help one bit. Thus the Conservative party was destroyed by the mangler, and the tides of seperatism rose from Quebec.

I guess you don't remember the free trade election, or the fact that a 7%, open, GST replaced an FST that was hidden and clocked in at 13% generally, and up to 15%.

As for the Constitution, at least he got Quebec to agree, unlike some other Constitutional moron I could name, but won't *cough* Trudeau *cough*

The funniest part of this all is that the Tories got shived by the 'Central Canadian' media, and Westerners were stupid enough to lap it up and destroy the prospects of defeating the Liberals in the subsequent several elections and the next few to come. It's as if Izzy Asper got to live his wettest dream.

	04-12-2003 11:38									#43
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Oh, and btw, FST stood for Federal manufacturers Sales Tax. It was levied on everything made in Canada, regardless of where it ended up. It was not levied on goods from outside of Canada that were imported.

It was one of the feds first taxes, ever, but can you say job killer?

	04-12-2003 11:40									#44
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All I used to hear about Meech Lake and Charlottown is how bad they would be for Central Canada in equating the votes of Ontario with those of PEI.

You have to remember that I would have been 7 during Meech Lake.

	04-12-2003 11:42									#45
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OH, and by free trade, I thought you meant the first Free Trade agreement with the US.

	04-12-2003 11:47									#46
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Yeah, I guess Mulroney's failed attempts at patching up Confederation after Trudeau and the PQ are worthy of destroying the Tories and shutting the right out of power for another 20 years or more. Hey, Mexico had one party for 40 years! Why can't we?

	04-12-2003 11:52									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi OH, and by free trade, I thought you meant the first Free Trade agreement with the US.

That was what that election was fought on, IIRC. The Tories won a majority. That then led to NAFTA. Their opponents have never forgotten. Neither has much of the bitterness that came out during that campaign been left in the past. Afterall, we want Refooooooorm.

	04-12-2003 11:57									#48
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To the econo folks, they can show just how much NAFTA has helped Canada. Why would back in 1992 they consider the deal to be a bad one?

Lots of people in Central Canada hated the constitutional amendments.

	04-12-2003 12:08									#49
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Free trade was a bitter and divisive issue. That election was a barn burner for that very issue alone. Mulroney won a second majority (something not done very often to that date) but it set the stage for the following years to be less than calm. As I said, I had beer thrown in my face for merely being a Tory. That was by a PHD in Philosophy who had been a President of the Graduates Students Association at a major University. People were wound up.

	04-12-2003 12:17									#50
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As to why it was bitter and divisive? It had unions, nationalists, and opponents of the Tories united in opposition. On his side, Mulroney had business, economists, and most Canadians as it turned out. However, the people who lost never forgot, nor forgave.

Recently I heard someone on radio say that Mulroney was an activist PM, and that he stirred up hatred by doing too much. Comparatively, Chretein was fine for most people until he started adopting too many issues himself, and when he did too much his support began to slip as well. It was an interesting POV.

	04-12-2003 12:33									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ever hear of tourism? Saying that they burn crosses in a community is a huge indictment! You better make sure they actually burn crosses before you go making a statement like that. It's not that she got the place wrong, there were no crosses burnt to speak of. She lied to make a point about the intolerance of northern communities. If you're going to make enemies like that you'd better have the facts to back you up.

A friend of mine was a reporter in Williams Lake and one of the stories he did was about racists terrorising an Indo-Canadain family, including a burning cross on the family's front yard. I hate to say it, but this sh!t happens, even in good old BC.

Fry's mistake was to embellish her comment by saying it was happening "as we speak".

But the essence of her comments are true. Racism is alive and well in Canada, whether it is whites who hate natives, or natives who hate whites, or Chinese-Canadians who look down on whites.

What Fry was saying is we have seen what racism can inflame violence in other parts of the world and let's recognise that racist attitudes exists in Canada. This was not an attack on Northern Canadians, nor on British Columbia. And anyways, BCers are the last one who should get self-righteous about being labelled racist given the history of the province.

	04-12-2003 12:36									#52
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So... since none of us seem to really like the Liberal option, are the rest of you members of http://www.fairvotecanada.org/ ?
If not, why not ?

... and BenKenobi - remember your avatar bet ! I'll probably take you up on it closer to election date.

	04-12-2003 12:40									#53
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Because the Conservative movement has had it's guts ripped out and put on display during the last 20 years in Canada. It all started with this guy named Mulroney, who thought free trade was a good idea...

God bless him. He was the best man the Left ever had.

	04-12-2003 12:43									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai A friend of mine was a reporter in Williams Lake and one of the stories he did was about racists terrorising an Indo-Canadain family, including a burning cross on the family's front yard. I hate to say it, but this sh!t happens, even in good old BC. Fry's mistake was to embellish her comment by saying it was happening "as we speak".

Can you post a link to any news story about any such events? Failing that, can you provide a publication, volume and issue number or date for any of us who care to run down to the library?

I would be genuinely interested since the only things I have read were that her slander was a total fabrication.

	04-12-2003 13:24									#55
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Can you post a link to any news story about any such events? Failing that, can you provide a publication, volume and issue number or date for any of us who care to run down to the library? I would be genuinely interested since the only things I have read were that her slander was a total fabrication.

No weblinks for the paper, Williams Lake Tribune. As for the specific date of the story, I'd have to check with the guy.

If I recall correctly, the question everyone asked was had there been any recent cross burnings in Prince George, and the RCMP there said we have no records of any hate-related crimes in the past two years.

Fry claimed she got the info from the PG mayor and the mayor denied that.

Then the story died.

	04-12-2003 13:29									#56
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Oh no, it did not die. It raged here for quite some time. Thanks anyways for the unsubstantiated continuation of the slander.

	04-12-2003 15:41									#57
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Wow.

Everybody seems to be up late tonight.

Uncle Sparky:

The bet has to do with the number of seats for the united Conservatives and the NDP. If the new party wins more seats than the established NDP party, then I win the bet. If it goes the other way, than you would win.

So if these are palatable terms, then I am willing to stand by them.

quote: And anyways, BCers are the last one who should get self-righteous about being labelled racist given the history of the province.

Consider the example of an alcoholic who has reformed and gone sober. Would not the alcoholic be justly angered if someone slandered him by saying he fell off the wagon?

Slander is slander, regardless of the target.

	04-12-2003 15:43									#58
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh no, it did not die. It raged here for quite some time. Thanks anyways for the unsubstantiated continuation of the slander.

Oh so if it ain't on the web, it ain't true.



And there's nothing slanderous about saying there are white extremists in BC, just as these idiots exist in the rest of Canada. Organised groups of Neo-Nazis, KKK and similar ilk are well-documented. Salmon Arm was a hotbed for these fools when I lived in the Okanagan during the 90s.

	04-12-2003 15:49									#59
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Still doesn't make Hedy's statement any less than slander. I'm willing to bet that she never contacted the mayor of Prince George like she said she did.

	04-12-2003 16:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Still doesn't make Hedy's statement any less than slander. I'm willing to bet that she never contacted the mayor of Prince George like she said she did.

Legally, you can't slander a group, only individuals. That's why Canada created hate crimes.

What Fry said is not hate speech, because all she claimed was that a crime was committed in a community. She did not say anything to suggest that Prince Rupert is full of racists. If I said there was a murder committed in Penticton, obviously I am not saying everyone in Penticton is a murderer.