08-12-2003 00:41									#61
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Speaking for myself, I've had a huge amount of fun playing over the last couple of months, despite the fact that we're up against impossible odds and having a tough time of it. I can't imagine what it would feel like to actually take and hold some ground.

It's more than a game. As has been alluded to on the gen forum, it's an experiment in team dynamics and civ dynamics and perhaps even a pioneering step in the history of strategy gaming, team-play and fantasy politics.

	08-12-2003 02:29									#62
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Ok I got my back PC online now an dI am looking at the game.

I have no experience with play against humans, so it is hard to judge things. It seems that GoW has not gotten much for thier troubles. Their GA is about gone and they are not able to expand.

I presume they have made some deal with ND, but ND will have to look to come for them soon.

Stupid question, what civ are we?

	08-12-2003 02:34									#63
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we are Egypt

The thinking is that GoW and ND have some workable agreement for splitting their continent. Looking at the contintent geographically, it shows how much they wanted to get rid of RP, as its going to make a very interesting amalgamation of cities, probably see a palace move somewhere along the way.

Sometime there will be conflict on bob, there has to be. I think lego would prefer there not be, since a unified bob is the largest threat to their victory. As you can see from the culture screen, they are way ahead of us.

	08-12-2003 06:14									#64
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Ok, probably could have looked at the letterheads, but was not sure if they would be changed as well.

Was a GA triggered or is that still in the back pocket to used at a better time?

The reason I would be very leery if I was China of sharing the contient, is if we are kicked off, that almost forces GoW to come for them. It would be very rough to mount an invasion of Stormia.
If they wait for us to get booted it may be too late for anyone to come to their aid. It is a delicate balance to align with someone, but break off before they get too strong, if you are not in the top 2 or 3 civs.

	08-12-2003 06:22									#65
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we and Vox already had our GA, RP and Lego still have theirs coming (if Lego didn't use a quick Vox attack to trigger theirs, but we've seen no (indirect) evidence of that), and GoW (China) and ND (Arabs) just ended, or are near the end of theirs.

DeepO

	08-12-2003 08:00									#66
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Ok, I was afraid you say that. So it would seem that keeping a toe hold is almost imperative? I have no history to know what the
depth of units arrayed against of are and if we have the menas to hold on. What I have read seems that most feel it can't be held. Is an invasion expected? Are we holdin units back for that purpose? I asked because I was wondering why the big interest in Gunpowder. Since no cash is available to upgrade at this time.
I guess it is intended to reduce research at that point to raise the money.
Can't wait to see what the plan si and how it unfolds.

	08-12-2003 08:08									#67
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on holding our holdings-

slim chances. we lost a ton of knights that were stationed adjacent to pamplona 2 turns ago, the screenshots rp sent (in one of the recent threads) shows something like 40 odd ND units (ansars, pikes, muskets, cats) And there are quite a few riders moving up from the south as well (they cut through the soft underbelly and into the south of spain quite easily)

we are desperately holding out until gunpowder in the hopes that we are sitting on a deposit-Lego said that we have none on Stormia, and thus this might be the only shot we have.


re: homeland invasion

We have the entire northern coast blocked, but there are some concerns that lego will strike the east. I think we are moving some galleys out there as lookouts. (thank god for the lighthouse) we know that lego has astronomy, but we are uncertain how much further along they are...

	08-12-2003 08:56									#68
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Even if we only have one turn of saltpeter, we can initiate Musket builds wherever possible. If we could get that and escape relatively intact it'd be worth it. Also, if the enemy have to spend two ansars/riders dislodging one of our pikes from a hill - that's worth it too.

The problem with PBEM is that when the enemy attacks during their turn, you don't see it - so you don't know how many hit you or how many of them died - especially against 3-move knights which can come out of nowhere and disappear again.

Unless Lego are mad, I can't see them attacking Stormia. They and Vox can't hold off GoW and ND forever if we're out of it.

	08-12-2003 21:04									#69
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Team: Gathering Storm
Civ : Egypt
Colour : Blue
Status : Power
Leaders/key figures : Cort Haus, Theseus, and those who show up to help them.
Start Location : South Stormia

Wonders: Sun Tzu, Great Lighthouse, Colossus, Great Wall.

Strengths: reasonably well-developed homeland, which is fairly easy to defend against invasion. Strong economy.

Weaknesses: homeland territory is relatively small, and may be lacking in certain resources (saltpeter?). Forbidden Palace was built close to Capitol (Tempest? or Arashi?) in the hopes of later leader-rushing a palace on Bob. When that hope faded, a new project was begun in N. Stormia (Elipolis?), but now if RP is going up there, that doesn't make sense. In short, sub-optimal Palace/FP placement. GA used already. Behind in tech. Heavy casualties in attempted defense of RP (the failure of which I bear some blame for - I'm still annoyed at myself for missing Toledo2).

In the end, it comes down to this: if we're stuck with only Stormia for the rest of the game, we almost certainly cannot win. We took a shot at superpower status, and we didn't make it. We're still a power, but we've taken quite a hit. That doesn't mean we're out of it... things can change. We may yet be able to deal ourselves back in.

My brief summary of the game:

We started with a decent spot, and micromanaged like madmen. The initial worker jobs/build queue was of my design, but Nathan took over after the initial few turns and did an unbelieveable job. We popped exactly one goodie hut, and got a settler. It should also be noted that our first elite combat victory resulted in a leader. Those two pieces of good luck have played no small part in our success. Anyway, we met Vox Controli to our north (with almost universal reactions of "damn, immortals"). There was initial tension because they blocked the chock point near Elipolis (not yet built) and refused to let our exploring warrior through. But under pressure they did give us contact with the Bobians they met by yelling across the straight in the far north. Our position, thanks to the good management + the settler, was stronger than theirs. We negotiated a border treaty that favored us, using the logic that our more powerful REX machine would result in a border that favored us anyway. We expressed our desire to cooperate peacefully with Vox, but I think it was clear to them that we were the power in the relationship.

During the time of peace with Vox, they built Dissidentville at the far south edge of their agreed-upon territory under our treaty. Lux Invicta (Ottomans, IIRC) were under attack on Bob, and sought refuge. Vox agreed and gave them Dissidentville for a little while, but eventually the deal fell through and Vox killed them off. Oddly, Vox Controli is technically responsible for the 1 and only elimination thus far.

Vox tried to colonize Bob, but was rebuffed. Their colony city went to Glory of War, no doubt in exchange for GoW's later "invasion" of Stormia (which was supposed to be bigger). It was in this time that we started thinking about ending our peaceful relationship and perhaps conquering Vox with knights. Nothing was decided, but we definitely began leaning in that direction.

Vox was a step or two ahead of us. They announced another Bobian expedition (and we scoffed. Fools! What were they thinking?). In reality, however, it was us they were after. They killed our lookout in the north, Grog, triggering their GA. They also landed 2 immortals in the desert region north of Sandstorm (then no-man's land), surrounding a second regular warrior. We disbanded the warrior, but were able to get a War Chariot in position to kill one of the Immortals, triggering our GA. That War Chariot was promoted to elite.

One turn later, 1 turn before we were scheduled to complete them (with the GA boost. Sans GA, it would have been 2 turns), Legoland finished the Pyramids. We switched to the Lighthouse and ate ~100 shields. However, thanks to our strong expansion efforts & special attention to Eye of the Storm and Hurricane, we now had two cities pumping out 30 shields/turn. 2 pikes per turn from those two cities alone. Other barracks towns built war chariots or med infs, and non-barracks towns built catapults.

The main Voxian force marched down the mountains toward Arashi. They got as far as Arashi. There they stopped, unwilling to hit Arashi (built on hill + walls + most of our army). They did, IIRC, tried to march around via the mountains and threaten Tempest, but by then we were too strong. So we bombarded them down to 1hp and eventually killed them. They had a smaller force on the mountains by Sandstorm/Hurricane, which got similar treatment. A small Voxian force also moved on the coastal city NW of Arashi, and was destroyed. In that battle, our elite war chariot generated our leader. We rushed Sun Tzu. Also during this time, Glory of War landed 2 horsemen (1 vet, 1 elite) next to O. Gale. We killed them. Their explanation was that they were under contract to land those troops (you know how it is, old chaps, no hard feelings, eh?).

Once the tide turned, we set about using our +1 ship movement to our advantage. I argued for a landing near Elipolis (which I dubbed Inchon) with a settler and pikes, to be reinforced with our speedy ships. This was discussed and expanded to include Inchoff, a landing on the east coast next to Vox's iron colony. Finally, Vulture added in the Elipolis operation. He realized we had Vox's army trapped south of Inchon/Inchoff, and if we landed the offensive units bound for Inchon next to Elipolis instead, we could break them. We took Elipolis, and a Vox counterattack vs. Inchon failed (though they did kill a bunch of pikes). Then we worked out the peace deal that sent them to Lego's continent.

Then came the Bobian adventure. But I'll leave that for now. It occurs to me that this wasn't brief at all.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 08-12-2003 at 21:10

	08-12-2003 22:16									#70
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clap clap




something to add-

before GoW landed the horsemen, we completed a deal that we would research feudalism and they would give us a cash infusion in exchange for chivalry later and cash from us. luckily this deal went through and we had pikes instead of spears to defend against immortals.

however, this deal bit us in the ass, GoW severely severely undercut our prices (we had a NDA on the tech) and every other civ politely said they didn't need the tech (shockingly enough, turn 20 all had it)

the deal to allow the voxodous was, IIRC, Monotheism (which was vox's free sci tech) and education or engineering, I can't remember how we got those two.

I really wish that we hadn't gotten education (I wonder if that's why they were eager to trade us or something) because we could churn out the library quite easily now and be caught up techwise....

	08-12-2003 22:59									#71
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Great Library eh? Vox could build that!

	08-12-2003 23:05									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Great Library eh? Vox could build that!

damn, just checked, everyone has education. I think we gifted RP education a while back. what are they researching, if anything, right now?

(vox does not have monarchy, chivalry, invention)

edit, nor do they have iron, furs, incense. They have an iron deposit next to one of their cities, I wonder if this is part of the agreement with Lego, or ????)

Wonder if they would trade us anything for our luxuries?

	08-12-2003 23:07									#73
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel and every other civ politely said they didn't need the tech (shockingly enough, turn 20 all had it)

Correction: turn 9 everyone had it, on a 10 turn NDA. One of the backstabs of GoW... they didn't even wait until the NDA had finished.

DeepO

	08-12-2003 23:17									#74
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ah, right deepo, the turns were a little hazy.



I just noticed:

ND does not have iron connected

lego needs incense. Perhaps we could trade.

also, ND and GoW do not have monarchy


hmm. seeing as how our bob luxuries are in the process of being cut off, what if we built the hanging gardens. Tempest could build in 12 turns, possibly less if we added a worker and shifted the work force around.

Also, if RP is to take over all of N. Stormia, I think we should consider moving nearly all of the cities. We could probably double the number of cities for RP to use that way and not lose all that much productivity.

Hey, here's one final crazy thought. What if we moved RP's capital to Wittlich city instead of Millertown. Corruption wouldn't increase much and....look at how far away Imperial city is and how PoI has no culture....can you say culture flip? That would be....precious.