11-12-2003 09:05									#31
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I see, so when opponents of communism cite Stalin and they're told that wasn't really communism, that's a valid refutation except when leftists want to blame capitalism for corporate welfare? Btw, Stalinism is a common variant of communism? I thought that was just an example of a dictator using an ideology to further his agenda. Oh yeah, that is common under communism.

If this is capitalism, does that mean the public schools are capitalistic too? Government contracts (closed to bidders or not) and services are not capitalism... Capitalism is you deciding if you want to buy someone's product, not me forcing you to buy it.

	11-12-2003 09:12									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon So the Bush administration is bent... ..tell me something I didn't know.

The square root of PI is approximately ~1.772

	11-12-2003 09:16									#33
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Oh god, sorry guys, I honestly didn't mean to do this to the thread.

quote: I see, so when opponents of communism cite Stalin and they're told that wasn't really communism, that's a valid refutation except when leftists want to blame capitalism for corporate welfare?

Who are you arguing against? Me or the personification of the imaginary monolithic left?

quote: Btw, Stalinism is a common variant of communism? I thought that was just an example of a dictator using an ideology to further his agenda. Oh yeah, that is common under communism.

No, Stalinism is a subset of communism. It was somewhat prominent in communist circles before the Berlin Wall fell. Again, who are you arguing against?

quote: If this is capitalism, does that mean the public schools are capitalistic too? Government contracts (closed to bidders or not) and services are not capitalism... Capitalism is you deciding if you want to buy someone's product, not me forcing you to buy it.

That's your definition of capitalism. Not most people who consider themselves capitalists.

	11-12-2003 09:20									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If the Pentagon can get toilet seats cheaper at the Wal-Mart down the street, why pay a defense contractor 500$ a pop for them? My faith in the general stupidity of government has been confirmed too many times for me to stop now.

It's not stupidity or incompetence, DD--it's called corruption. And it's quite deliberate.

	11-12-2003 09:41									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Edan The square root of PI is approximately ~1.772

Thanks I needed that...

*slaps self*

	11-12-2003 09:43									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It's not stupidity or incompetence, DD--it's called corruption. And it's quite deliberate.

Not to mention incredibly obvious.

	11-12-2003 09:46									#37
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Let's give DD some credit. Maybe the members of the Bush administration are idoit saphants (sp).

	11-12-2003 09:53									#38
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quote: So the Bush administration is bent... ..tell me something I didn't know.

Oooh this'll be fun. The inverse of the lifetime of a hydrogen atom in an excited state is the summation over all states it can transition to of 4/3 times the seperation frequency (making the phrase up, I have no real idea what it's supposed to be called) between the two states squared times the square of the magnitude of the matrix element between the two states of the radial vector divided by the quantity of the speed of light cubed times planck's constant over 2pi.

	11-12-2003 12:51									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Let's give DD some credit. Maybe the members of the Bush administration are idoit saphants (sp).

Sig material on a silver platter.

	12-12-2003 04:50									#40
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update:

quote: Pentagon Finds Halliburton Overcharged 2 hours, 11 minutes ago Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo! By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - A Pentagon (news - web sites) investigation has found overcharging and other violations in a $15.6 billion Iraq (news - web sites) reconstruction contract awarded to Vice President **** Cheney (news - web sites)'s former company, a defense official said Thursday. AP Photo An ongoing audit of Halliburton's Kellogg, Brown & Root subsidiary found substantial overcharging for fuel and other items, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. The problems go beyond overcharging, the official said, declining to elaborate. The Defense Contract Audit Agency has talked with KBR executives during the audit, the official said. A KBR spokeswoman, Patrice Mingo, did not immediately return telephone and e-mail messages seeking comment. Democratic Reps. Henry Waxman of California and John Dingell of Michigan have accused KBR of price gouging for gasoline used in Iraq. The two congressmen said Halliburton charges the Army $2.65 a gallon for gas under a no-bid contract, while another Pentagon agency imports fuel from Kuwait to Iraq at a cost of $1.09 to $1.15 per gallon. The Army is to open its KBR contract to competitive bidding next month. Halliburton has denied any price gouging. The company has said it needs to charge a high price because the fuel must be delivered in a combat zone. Several KBR workers have been killed or wounded in attacks by Iraqi insurgents. Some of the Democratic presidential candidates have said the awarding of several no-bid contracts to Halliburton appears to be a political payoff to a firm whose executives were Bush campaign donors. Bush administration and Halliburton officials have denied politics played any role in awarding the contracts to KBR, which also has Pentagon contracts for food service and other support for troops in Iraq and other countries. Cheney, a former defense secretary, stepped down from Halliburton when he became Bush's running mate in 2000 and has said he played no role in contracts for his former company.

from http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...iburton_probe_4

	12-12-2003 04:56									#41
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I really, really hope the media makes an issue of this.

	12-12-2003 05:01									#42
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Berserker,
it's like this. Before communism ever took power, we had an idea of what it was supposed to be like, how it was supposed to run, etc. Stalin comes along, and it looks nothing like it. One can then reasonably say, "Not the same thing."

Capitalism has been around for hundreds of years. It changes, it grows, it evolves. Then libertarians come along and say, "no, real capitalism is supposed to be something I just made up." While the arguments appear similar in form, in essence they are different.

	12-12-2003 05:17									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It's not stupidity or incompetence, DD--it's called corruption. And it's quite deliberate.

Well duh -- they would not accidentally buy the best toilet seats they can possibly find, now would they?

	12-12-2003 05:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's capitalism and it's corporate welfare.

That statement proves your vast ignorance. The two are mutually exclusive.

	12-12-2003 05:27									#45
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quote: Who are you arguing against? Me or the personification of the imaginary monolithic left?

Most of the communists on this board.

	12-12-2003 05:33									#46
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker That statement proves your vast ignorance. The two are mutually exclusive.

Show me a definition of capitalism that excludes corporate welfare. And not Berzerker's either.

	12-12-2003 06:47									#47
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Capitalism - An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

See "free market", Kid? Corporate welfare is not the free market. It's fascistic, or as we see with some of the European "social democracies", socialistic.

Ramo - I'm debating you and when poly communists deny that Stalinism represents communism, you've agreed (don't ask me to track down a quote because I can't/won't). Now, you didn't answer my question about public schools, are they capitalistic?

chegitz -

quote: Berserker, it's like this. Before communism ever took power, we had an idea of what it was supposed to be like, how it was supposed to run, etc.

"We"?

quote: Stalin comes along, and it looks nothing like it. One can then reasonably say, "Not the same thing."

Fine, then corporate welfare is not capitalism at work.

quote: Capitalism has been around for hundreds of years. It changes, it grows, it evolves. Then libertarians come along and say, "no, real capitalism is supposed to be something I just made up." While the arguments appear similar in form, in essence they are different.

Libertarians came along and invented the concept of a free market? I'd suggest that concept goes back to the first people who freely exchanged goods. Now, does the free market have a definition? Does that definition allow for the state to step in and distort the playing field by taking money from one group of producers and handing it to another?

	12-12-2003 07:29									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Capitalism - An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market. See "free market", Kid? Corporate welfare is not the free market. It's fascistic, or as we see with some of the European "social democracies", socialistic.

He said coporate welfare and capitalism are mutually exclusive, and I challenged him to show me a definition that excludes corporate welfare. Nothing in your definition excludes corporate welfare since it doesn't say that all of the markets must be free.

edit: and the existence of any government is not free market as you are trying to define capitalism. All govt spending and taxation is market manipulation.

	12-12-2003 08:20									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Well duh -- they would not accidentally buy the best toilet seats they can possibly find, now would they?

That's not the issue...DD was (I think) assuming $500 toilet seats were the result of unnoticed gouging on the part of suppliers to the military. While this happens a lot, it's also due to outright cronyism and corruption in the system. When Senator Smith's home state defense contractor is supplying toilet seats, somebody's going to make sure the military pays $500 per seat.

	12-12-2003 08:29									#50
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Kid -

quote: He said coporate welfare and capitalism are mutually exclusive, and I challenged him to show me a definition that excludes corporate welfare. Nothing in your definition excludes corporate welfare since it doesn't say that all of the markets must be free.

Here is the definition again:

quote: Capitalism - An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Take note of the words in bold. Once the market is not free, it is no longer capitalism.

quote: edit: and the existence of any government is not free market as you are trying to define capitalism. All govt spending and taxation is market manipulation.

No, only when the state subsides certain businesses. A free market requires among other things, a level playing field, i.e., no playing favorites. Corporate welfare is exactly that, playing favorites... You asked for a definition of Capitalism and you got it.

	12-12-2003 08:33									#51
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I heard $500 toilet seats were a way for Congress to fund black ops/CIA whose funding is meant to be kept off the radar screen. Or maybe I heard that in a X-Files episode.

	12-12-2003 08:37									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That's not the issue...DD was (I think) assuming $500 toilet seats were the result of unnoticed gouging on the part of suppliers to the military. While this happens a lot, it's also due to outright cronyism and corruption in the system. When Senator Smith's home state defense contractor is supplying toilet seats, somebody's going to make sure the military pays $500 per seat.

I see

	12-12-2003 09:03									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Show me a definition of capitalism that excludes corporate welfare. And not Berzerker's either.

Capitalism: and economic system characterized by government nonintervention and full economic freedom.

	12-12-2003 09:13									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker No, only when the state subsides certain businesses. A free market requires among other things, a level playing field, i.e., no playing favorites. Corporate welfare is exactly that, playing favorites... You asked for a definition of Capitalism and you got it.

Oh, only when the state subsidizes certain businesses.

	12-12-2003 09:14									#55
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Capitalism: and economic system characterized by government nonintervention and full economic freedom.

Where did you get that def? A govt that doesn't intervene is no govt at all.

	12-12-2003 09:15									#56
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Just go to the frickin' dictionary, people:

cap·i·tal·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kp-tl-zm)
n.
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

	12-12-2003 09:18									#57
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quote: Where did you get that def? A govt that doesn't intervene is no govt at all.

Sorry, government nonentervention in the market.

I thought that would be obvious in the context of an economic system

	12-12-2003 09:21									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Oh, only when the state subsidizes certain businesses.

Where did you get that idea? That is exactly what he just said is NOT capitalism.

Don't you think it's telling that even chegitz doesn't defend you?

	12-12-2003 09:25									#59
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Where did you get that idea? That is exactly what he just said is NOT capitalism.

From Berez. It's sarcasim.

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Don't you think it's telling that even chegitz doesn't defend you?

	12-12-2003 09:57									#60
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*sigh*