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Plotinus
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Ah, a series of threads with comments by panag, and this one at the top - how did I guess what he was going to say...?
I think that Israel's a possibility but there are higher priorities - Abyssinia, Ghana, Mali, Songhai, for example. Africa is very under-represented in this game, while the Middle East is now over-represented with the addition of the Hittites et al (and we still don't have Assyria...).
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Plotinus
Ah, a series of threads with comments by panag, and this one at the top - how did I guess what he was going to say...?
I think that Israel's a possibility but there are higher priorities - Abyssinia, Ghana, Mali, Songhai, for example. Africa is very under-represented in this game, while the Middle East is now over-represented with the addition of the Hittites et al (and we still don't have Assyria...). |
hi ,
how can the middle east be represented without Israel , .....
the people of Israel , whether or not you call them jews have the right to be inside the game , .... why , cause huh , where are all those other great nations , .... they are all gone , except for us , we are still here , ...
and pages can be filled with reasons as to why , ....
have a nice day 
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Plotinus
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Well, an ethnic or cultural group isn't quite the same as a civilisation, and whilst the Jews have been terribly important in cultural terms, they have been less so in political terms, which seems to be more of the criterion that they go for in this game. In Civ terms Israel hasn't been around for that long, because the modern state of Israel has no continuity with the ancient nation, any more than (say) the modern country of Greece has anything to do with the nation of Alexander the Great. Obviously Israel is the dominant power in the Middle East today, but if modern importance is your criterion for inclusion I think countries like Mexico, Brazil, or Nigeria might head the list. In fact there are *no* modern South American or African nations in Civ as it stands, which is really a more glaring admission than the absence of the modern state of Israel, omission though that still is.
Now if you're talking about including the *Jews*, in the sense of a cultural or ethnic group, that's much more interesting. I think there's a good case for trying to include a more full-blooded sense of culture and ethnic identity than currently exists in Civ. We have threads on this somewhere, don't we?
Nice idea about the scenarios though... I wouldn't mind having a go at being Joshua and invading the Canaanites...
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Plotinus
Well, an ethnic or cultural group isn't quite the same as a civilisation, and whilst the Jews have been terribly important in cultural terms, they have been less so in political terms, which seems to be more of the criterion that they go for in this game. In Civ terms Israel hasn't been around for that long, because the modern state of Israel has no continuity with the ancient nation, any more than (say) the modern country of Greece has anything to do with the nation of Alexander the Great. Obviously Israel is the dominant power in the Middle East today, but if modern importance is your criterion for inclusion I think countries like Mexico, Brazil, or Nigeria might head the list. In fact there are *no* modern South American or African nations in Civ as it stands, which is really a more glaring admission than the absence of the modern state of Israel, omission though that still is.
Now if you're talking about including the *Jews*, in the sense of a cultural or ethnic group, that's much more interesting. I think there's a good case for trying to include a more full-blooded sense of culture and ethnic identity than currently exists in Civ. We have threads on this somewhere, don't we?
Nice idea about the scenarios though... I wouldn't mind having a go at being Joshua and invading the Canaanites... |
hi ,
here is a short list , .....
Here is a capsule of accomplishments you may not be fully aware of. I thought you might find these statistics interesting.
The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average tree is about 18-20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year. Israeli trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough to be harvested from the ground or a short ladder
Israel, the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, can lay claim to the following:
The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.
Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel.
The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel. Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel.
The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.
Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.
Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.
The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.
Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U. S, Russia and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel's air force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of F-16 aircraft outside of the U. S.
According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most impenetrable flight security. U. S. officials now look to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.
Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.
Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.
Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.
Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people --as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.
In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the U. S. (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).
With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from the Silicon Valley, U. S.
Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the U. S.
Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.
Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.
On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.
Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees -- ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland - and 12 per cent hold advanced degrees.
Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.
In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews at risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.
When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the world's second elected female leader in modern times.
When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three victims from the rubble.
Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the highest rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.
Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity.
Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."
Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.
Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.
Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.
Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.
An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.
Israel's Givun Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the camera helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.
Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.
Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.
A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the ClearLight device, produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin or tissue.
An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern California's Mojave desert.
All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth.
as for the list of the last 5700 years , well it would be to long , ....
have a nice day
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okblacke
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quote:
Originally posted by panag
All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth.
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More seriously, one of Civ's flaws--and I can't imagine how it could be rectified--is that it can't model modern Israel. (And not just Israel. It doesn't really model India well, either, or Native Americans, etc., etc., etc.)
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:32
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quote:
Originally posted by okblacke
Well, yeah.
But they killed Jesus.
 Joke! Joke! Don't hurt me! |
hi ,
well , that would great in a scen would it not be , ...... 
but correction , the romans did , ......
but this should go into the OT , ....
okblacke ; there are many civs that cant be model for civ then , .... yet India is in , .....
plenty of reasons as to include them , ....
yom tov
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Max Sinister
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quote:
Originally posted by panag
Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel.
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Sorry panag, but that's not what I consider a great achievement ;-)
(OK, I'm a Linux partisan)
The rest, however, is true.
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yellfromhell
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Montevideo, Uruguay
Jun 2002
time: 05:32
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Hi,
People are arguing all the time about including Israel, Siamese, Huns, Etiopeans, and so on.
Does anyone remember a continent called South America? It seems we do not exist: accept we are not developed countries but at least consider us as exotic. Not even this is shown in your choices. It looks like we can be summarized with the Inca civ.
There are lots of proposed civs that were undeveloped ones, and some Conquests civs too. So, if some feels the need to build a global representative Civ4 game, then, at least, include 1 more South American civ: ex: brazileans, argentineans, araucans, guaranis, onas... The same should go for Caribean region (not Central America), ex: cubans, caribes...
O.K... maybe we wont be remembered as part of the world´s vanguard, but i look to other civs that are remembered and dont meet that minimun and I get confused.
About Splitting: everytime you talk about civ splitting you mention that the Spaniards should be able to split into Argentine, Mexico, Peru, Chile,... Good Idea, but then no Argentine, Mexican or Peruvian Civ could start the game. You also say that the English should be able to split into American, South-African, Aussies,... but again, no American, South-African or Australian Civ could start the game. Before talking about names we should solve this paradox or contradiction first, dont you think?
Hugs
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Max Sinister
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Sorry, I don't like the idea that specific civs can split off from other civs. Do we have to start every game in 4000BC with Babylonians and Chinese only, then? Why can't we have a fictitious civ that would've emerged if the Italians had had a big American colony? What happens if the split-of civs will split again? The idea is still interesting, but we need better solutions...
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Quezacotl06
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You know how the sedentiary barbarians have names for their villages that are minor civilizations of that cultural group? Breakaway civilizations (which would only happen to cities that are far away and/or have large ethnic splits) could just be given names and such from a certain group in that culture. China could have breakaways that become the indonesians, the vietnamese, the tai, the mongolians. French breakaways could become the Belgium, Denmark, Switzerland, Slovakia, etc.
It's still centered around having culturaly-linked groups of people, while still having noone singled out. Also, I think breakaway civs should get a "breakaway" civ trait, which means all villages get extra food/shields/commerce/culture until they reach size 7, and then only extra culture until they reach size 13. So they can catch up to other civs quickly. Cause it honesly is not fair if ur competing with others who've had like a 150 year head start.
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Quezacotl06
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A solution I thought up was to have your civilization made by punching in a few things
*ENTER CULTURE: American
*ENTER TRAITS: Industrial, Agricultural
After that, a little database flips open, and then you can select which american civlization you want, which just loads your unit, your leader's portrait (please be just a picture, the leaders moving their faces back and forth looking displeased or turned on REALY was not worth the loss in design flexibility), and city names, and battle/science leaders.
But if you choose a culture and a set of traits, it automaticaly selects a match for you, and you can choose if you want it or not. If you enter European and Commerce/Seafaring, the option to select the English pops right up, or you can flip through other civ names. Maybe you wanna be Irish, or Welsche, or the Swiss? You shouldn't be able to select a nation outside of a cultural group, though. You gotta keep some of the solidarity of regional ethnic/culturaly linked starts.
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Brent
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Breakaway Trait: good idea.
Other idea: could be particularly good if there are so many civs available that they need to be narrowed down. Would be nice to be able to edit city lists in setup too. And be able to use setup like an editor in creating new civs to use again later.
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Xorbon
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Guelph, ON
Jul 2003
time: 00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by panag
hi ,
here is a short list , ...
Here is a capsule of accomplishments you may not be fully aware of. I thought you might find these statistics interesting.
...yadda, yadda, yadda...
...midget date palms...
...blah, blah, blah...
have a nice day |
(I know this is a fairly old post, but...)
I'm all for adding Israel as a civ, though I'd give it a ranking of between 30 and 40 in terms of priority. In addition, I would not include it because of the accomplishments of the modern state. The modern state of Israel is quite insignificant with respect to history as a whole. If you're going to include Israel because of its modern achievements, you'd have to include countries such as Brazil, Canada, and Australia as well.
Instead of the modern state, I'd look at the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah. These kingdoms lasted about 500 years; modern Israel isn't quite 60 years old yet.
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Quezacotl06
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I think the database idea and the ability to edit civ city names and such would be good.
- Can have large variety of civs., there will be something for everyone
- No signaling out others as being insignificant. Israel and Canada in mind (my own ignorant patriotic mind). Because history could have certainly changed to make Canada (Or Mexico, or Brazil) the dominant American civilization.
- Easier to have breakaway colonies, when a database of their names already exists of their information. Once again, no signaling out of any particular nation as being vulnerable to insurrection.
Granted, it would require more work, but less time on each civ could be done. 2d portrait, briefer historical background, stuff like that. Stuff that I really did not care for when I first found it.
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08-05-2004 18:09
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