17-12-2003 23:53									#31
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We were talking about what the Soviets stole, not what the US stole. I'll concede the US essentially stole the RoK if you concede the same for the Soviet Union and the DPRK.

	17-12-2003 23:58									#32
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...

"stole" ?

does the fact that korea was itself an independent nation until japan annexed and occupied it (against the wishes of the koreans, by the way) not count for anything?

	17-12-2003 23:59									#33
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No, it does, and that's the point. Neither the North nor the South got true independence after the war - the North got a brutal Soviet backed dictator, and the South got a somewhat less brutal US backed one.

	18-12-2003 00:01									#34
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Your Chegrits,

Civilians are military targets in total war, and we did target them in the larger cities. The fact that we chose cities that were not the best for total body count means that the "bodies" were not the target.

-Pat

	18-12-2003 00:18									#35
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but you do realize the phrase "stole from japan" in reference to korea is extraordinarily offensive?

	18-12-2003 01:07									#36
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Is that how the cold war started? How did it start?

Spec.

	18-12-2003 01:10									#37
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well, it's not where it started, but it, along with east and west germany, was the frontline.

	18-12-2003 01:17									#38
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd ...after it became clear that Stalin would not live up to his agreements...

Is THAT the reason why the cold war started? How did it start?

Spec.

	18-12-2003 01:19									#39
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Q³,
I thought Korea was a Chinese colony before the Japanese took it in the Sino-Japanese war of 1895. All my old maps show it bein part of the Chinese Empire.

	18-12-2003 01:22									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Spec Is THAT the reason why the cold war started? How did it start? Spec.

Depending on which ideologue you listen to, the Cold War began when the Soviets blockaded Berlin or when the Allies began thinking about how to deal with the USSR after the war. (If you read George Kennan's work, he pretty much taks credit for starting the Cold War--he worked for the US state Department).

The reason it began is simple, communism and capitalism are incompatable systems. Each needs to destroy the other. The Cold War was inevitable since the Allies wanted to destroy the USSR, and the USSR's mere existence was a threat to the capitalists, as their own workers could always point to the USSR as an alternative model of organizing society (even after the truth about how bad things in the USSR were came out).

	18-12-2003 01:23									#41
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obviously, your maps were wrong.

korea has always been an independent nation from its founding almost 5000 years ago, except for a brief period while it was under mongol rule.

it did pay tribute to china for much of its later years, but in the earlier periods, it controlled almost all of manchuria as well as the peninsula.

korea was never a colony until the japanese raped it.

korea was never part of china. the people do not share a same culture.

	18-12-2003 01:25									#42
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Lots of people don't share China's culture, that doesn't mean they weren't ruled by China. Take Vietnam for example, or Tibet.

	18-12-2003 01:39									#43
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of course. but korea was not a colony of china. entirely separate dynastic line. china had treaties with korea, as one would have with any other foreign nation, not a colony.

	18-12-2003 01:49									#44
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Tributary state then?

	18-12-2003 01:53									#45
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quote: it did pay tribute to china for much of its later years, but in the earlier periods, it controlled almost all of manchuria as well as the peninsula.

see above.

	18-12-2003 05:52									#46
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quote: thats why they didnt bomb kyoto.

Or Nara, thank god. One of the few decent acts to come out of WWII.

	18-12-2003 11:15									#47
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quote: Is THAT the reason why the cold war started? How did it start?

It's not the only reason, but certainly one reason. Had Stalin not been a paranoid ****er (and an expansionist ****er), and had the US not decided to, in many ways, do the same things (on a less brutal scale), everything would have been peachy. Well, not for people living IN the Soviet Union, naturally.

quote: The reason it began is simple, communism and capitalism are incompatable systems. Each needs to destroy the other.

That's not true. True capitalist systems don't really care what type of economy another country has. If everyone in the capitalist country is getting rich, for example, and everyone in the communist country is poor, the capitalists have no reason to go pick a fight, unless the communist country is acting aggressively.

quote: The Cold War was inevitable since the Allies wanted to destroy the USSR, and the USSR's mere existence was a threat to the capitalists, as their own workers could always point to the USSR as an alternative model of organizing society (even after the truth about how bad things in the USSR were came out).

Saying that the Allies wanted to destroy the USSR just isn't true. I can't think of one MAJOR Allied figure, outside of Patton, who even THOUGHT the Allies should destroy the Soviet Union.

In any case, I'm not aware of anyone who left the Soviet Union and pointed to the Soviet Union as a positive way of "organizing society". People from outside the Soviet Union certainly did, but they were essentially ignorant of the reality of the Soviet Union.

	18-12-2003 16:40									#48
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Nagasaki was the center of Japaneese catholicism, and protestant USA wanted to destroy it. Hough.

	18-12-2003 17:45									#49
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That was in the 16th & 17th century. The first Shogun ended up killing most of the Japanese Catholics because their leader was his biggest competetor to the title of Shogun.

	18-12-2003 19:39									#50
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The official target in the middle of Hirohsima was the Army Group HQ commanding the defenses of southern Japan. The offical target for the second strick was a military equipment factory complex at Kokura (KitaKyusuhu). Nagasaki contain the secondary target, I do not recall exactly what it was.

	19-12-2003 05:18									#51
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quote: The first Shogun ended up killing most of the Japanese Catholics because their leader was his biggest competetor to the title of Shogun.

Actually, the Christians were wiped out because Hideyoshi and then the Tokugawa feared that they would act as a fifth column in an invasion of Japan by the Spanish Empire, an idea planted by the blustering pronouncements of a shipwrecked Spanish sailor and reinforced by the Protestant English and Dutch. There's a reason why only the Dutch were the only Westerners allowed to trade with Japan after the Tokugawa closed the country off.