21-12-2003 06:04									#31
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GEE, NOT THAT I'M SAYING THAT APARTMENT BUILDING DESERVED TO BE BLOWN UP AFTER THE WITHDRAWAL. JUST THAT MANY CHECHYN APARTMENT BUILDINGS WERE BEFORE COLLAPSED BY RUSSIAN HANDS. SO I GUESS IT'S JUST PUTTING THINGS INTO PERSPECTIVE IS ALL, I SORTA GUESS, I THINK. THAT'S ALL I'M REALLY SAYING.

NOT THAT I SUPPORT THE TERRORISTS DECISION TO DO SO, OR ANYTHING KINDA SORTA LIKE THAT. JUST THAT MAYBE THEY DESERVED IT, BUT NOT REALLY. JUST GIVING A DIFFERENT VIEW ON THE SUBJECT; PUTTING A SPIN ON THE BARREL. GLAD YOU GUYS COULD USE MY VALUED HELP HERE.

	21-12-2003 06:04									#32
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The Russians RAZED Grozny. That's more than a few apartment buildings...

EDIT: Zylka, cool down your pill diet. CAPITAL LETTERS ARE SOOO ANNOYING

	21-12-2003 06:05									#33
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Also they grabbed/kidnapped UN aide workers and others including an American citizen around that time frame as well.

	21-12-2003 06:10									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Not that I support terrorism, but how many apartment buildings did the Russians blow in Chechnya?

I have no idea but that shouldn't be an excuse for (some) Chechens to do the same (within their physical possibilities).

	21-12-2003 06:11									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie The Russians RAZED Grozny. That's more than a few apartment buildings... EDIT: Zylka, cool down your pill diet. CAPITAL LETTERS ARE SOOO ANNOYING

They're soooo legit too. So tell me, Queen Pacifist - what exactly are you arguing here in regards to that apartment bombing after the withdrawal? That it was justified from the previous raze and therefore should have been let slide, or perhaps even that it was a good idea altogether?

Hard to tell if you're bringing anything to the table other than "I'm just sayings", or the tell tale select side hypocrisy of a "pacifist". Take your pick, or prove me wrong.

	21-12-2003 06:19									#36
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Some houses were blown. I'm very critical about any news from that area, and normally don't trust anything by default. Perhaps It's still in my backbone since the cold war. I'm normally not a conspiracy theorist, but in this case, it might have been former KGB who did it to justify a second war.

	21-12-2003 06:27									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Some houses were blown. I'm very critical about any news from that area, and normally don't trust anything by default. Perhaps It's still in my backbone since the cold war. I'm normally not a conspiracy theorist, but in this case, it might have been former KGB who did it to justify a second war.

Great. Of course it probably has nothing to do with some batsh*t pack of 20-40 year old males "avenging" their families' deaths and acting on poorly percieved principles of the Quaran. Taking such a scenario into consideration would somehow be "racist" - so let's assume otherwise.

	21-12-2003 06:28									#38
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I'm not trying to imply anything here, or say something, but I'm saying the whole **** has multiple layers. No, blowing up Russian citizens is not justified. I'm not trying to say anything like that. But I'm saying, it's complex situation, and I fail get it in simple ways. I'm a strong supporter of killing terrorists where ever they set their foot. But..... it's like this, when you hear about Israel and bombings there, which thank God have been more quiet than usual, we hear about the same amount of news in there, both sides being just about as evil as other, even to an extent, where Chechnyan terrorists acts, but still I'm not ready to say Checnya is to blame. But before you say anything, I said before, I DO condone terrorism and what has happened in Russia. It's just that messed up. That's why I think they should just pull out and figure different approach, believe me this is not working. Or just come here watch the news, countless documentaries and articles. Yes, from both sides.

	21-12-2003 06:29									#39
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius CO your right. But remeber that Stalin wiped all the intellectual gene heritage out of russia. They are simply not capable of doing anything right

We'll be back. Remember that, you arrogant representative of a small and purposeless nation of Philistines.

	21-12-2003 06:30									#40
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Zylka, that conspiracy theory is very popular. It doesn't make it true, but there has been high Russian officials confirming them. I don't know if they are true or not, facts remain that civilians are dead though. It's gone so far there, that I don't know if it's effective and constructive to look at that case only.

	21-12-2003 06:31									#41
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They should probably pull out of the area, agreed. Yet the second (whatever) bombing during such times of armistice probably won't lend too much of a reserved Russian return.

	21-12-2003 06:33									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Zylka, that conspiracy theory is very popular. It doesn't make it true, but there has been high Russian officials confirming them. I don't know if they are true or not, facts remain that civilians are dead though. It's gone so far there, that I don't know if it's effective and constructive to look at that case only.

Really. Well then I for one will listen. What gains would Russia have to pull such off, even in the long run? They sure don't seem to be gaining much in all else

	21-12-2003 06:33									#43
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Zylka, yeah.. and I don't have answers to the real problems there either.. but that war is crappy one, and it needs to stop even with some sacrifices.... that's all.

	21-12-2003 06:35									#44
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Zylka, well the conspiracy theory itself is lengthy one, and I'm not the one answering them . Maybe Chemical Ollie can help you out. Let's say it would make sense if it was true, and there are mixed signals, but then again it's not really confirmed and as such it is just a theory, not fact.

edit: but Russia as a country wouldn't not benefit from it. Someone else can fill me in here. I don't feel comfortable talking about it, and I don't like taking sides in this whole conflict.

	21-12-2003 06:51									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ned What the Russians need to do is actively support America, Britain and Israel in the war on extremist Muslim terror. The Russians cannot win in Chechnya unless and until the larger question is resolved.

Yes, Russia should support America, Britain and Israel, but up to the point they can be trusted. Let me tell you what will happen when the "larger question" is resolved (not that I believe it can be resolved in the near future, if at all). The West will simply escalate its demonizing of Russia in the Chechen campaign, and the pressure on Russia will become unsustainable. Now, in view of Russia's resolve and the war on terror, the "criticism" has had to be toned down.

	21-12-2003 07:10									#46
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There is no obvious solution for Russia here. What is going on is horrible, and there seems to be no way to settle this down. But pulling out could be even more horrible. Perhaps the Chechen war is the cross Russia has to bear in the foreseeable future in order to avert even greater disasters.

I believe the situation is pretty much similar to the war on terror. It can't be won in the near future, but it has to be waged permanently in order to keep the situation at least under some control.

	21-12-2003 07:17									#47
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The Vagabond, not so at all. I personally am 100% behind Russia in this as I recognize that Russia is under assault from Muslim extremists.

We are all in this war together and we need to support each other. I, of course, cannot speak for all Americans, but I believe most of us are on your side. It is true that the same people who oppose the war on terror or who side with the Palestinians in the ME are very unsympathetic to Russia's problems in Chechnya. But they are not in the majority here at least.

You have friends here. Hopefully we can be allies together in this struggle.

	21-12-2003 07:22									#48
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Ned, not true. I strongly support the American effort and Iraq. Even before the war. And when it started.

However, I don't take sides on Russia vs Chechnya. It's not just Muslim terrorists vs Russia. It can't be compared to Israel vs. Palestine. It's unique, like every war and conflict is, but they can't be compared IMO. And after hearing what has happened in Chechnya, I think Russia also lost their moral high ground. So, that's why I think this is just one of those wars that never ends, and keeps the body count rising, endless amount of war crimes from both sides.

But like Vagabond said, I agree with him too kind of.. and I don't want to blame Russia for everything either. One thing I don't agree, is that Chechnya could be controlled by doing war. Not unless you kill every man over 14.

But.. we'll see.. I hope it ends soon. Sooner the better.

And this is where I think that Bush's with or against speech is dangerous. We can't lump all these together. We need to analyze them a lot, we need to separate them from each other, because they are unique conflicts.

	21-12-2003 07:34									#49
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But I stress how strongly I am against terrorism and attacks that have happened in Russia. And without that terrorism part of the war, I'd say the only option for Russia is to pull out ASAP. But because that is in the picture.. I just don't know.. and that's why I'm not comfortable judging the ROoskies. So I just won't do that. So.. I won't take any sides. I do, however, take side against those terrorists that attacks Russia. THose I'm against 100% simple and pure, and I hope Rooskies can get them.

	21-12-2003 07:39									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The Vagabond, not so at all. I personally am 100% behind Russia in this as I recognize that Russia is under assault from Muslim extremists.

Were you 100% behind Serbia in the 90's?

	21-12-2003 07:41									#51
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A condensed, laymans hisotry of Chechnya since 1991:

In 1991 the USSR came to and end, and Chechnya ended up being part of the Russian federation..ex-military officer took over and ran the place autonomously for most of the next 3 years...but it kept getting mroe and more autonomous and lawless, so in 1994 the Russians move in. Very bloody battle for the capital grozny-the Russians bomb and shell the city indescriminately. move in with poorly trained motorrized internal security forces (not army) and they are embarrasingly kicked out after a few months of fighting. The Russians eventually gain control of most cities, but can;t put the thing down. In negotiations in 1996, the Russians agree to get out. Chechnya, by now full of wariors, Jihaddist, and whomever, becomes lawless..attempts are made from Chechnya to spread seccesionism to Dagestan and other neighboring provinces. In late 1999 a series of bombings in Moscow lead to the Russians coming back in, that and a chechen insurgency into Dagestan-. As people say, there is a bunch of conspiracy theories about whether the FSB did ti to get Russia back in.

	21-12-2003 07:43									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The Vagabond, not so at all. I personally am 100% behind Russia in this as I recognize that Russia is under assault from Muslim extremists. We are all in this war together and we need to support each other. I, of course, cannot speak for all Americans, but I believe most of us are on your side. It is true that the same people who oppose the war on terror or who side with the Palestinians in the ME are very unsympathetic to Russia's problems in Chechnya. But they are not in the majority here at least.

Ned, I would certainly trust you personally on this matter. Your personal position is consistent and honest. But this is precisely the point: it is your personal position. The position and actions of the US government (not to mention the Europeans) may well turn out quite different. At least you seem to recognize this yourself.

quote: You have friends here. Hopefully we can be allies together in this struggle.

In principle, we are allies already. But unfortunately not unconditional allies, but rather allies that need to watch each other's backs.

	21-12-2003 08:01									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka And after hearing what has happened in Chechnya, I think Russia also lost their moral high ground.

It would certainly be great to wage war as neatly as the Americans do in Iraq, to have Grozny surrendered just as Baghdad surrendered to the Americans. But the Russian Army is basically a wreck. Unfortunately we don't have any other army right now, and we have to do the fight that we have to do just with what we have.

	21-12-2003 08:04									#54
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By the way, that was a rather accurate summary, GePap.

Well, actually except for this:

quote: In 1991 the USSR came to and end, and Chechnya ended up being part of the Russian federation..

Chechnya was part of the Russian Federation already in the times of the USSR. It was never a "union-level" republic.

	21-12-2003 16:51									#55
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And it was never an independent state.

Pekka, we already withdrawn our forces from there once. Since 1996 up to 1999 there wasn't a single Russian soldier or cop. And guess what? They keep attacking Russia, keep to blow-up bombs at our streets, keep to blow-up our houses, keep to take hostages, keep to steal our citizens and turn them to slaves. And finally in 1999, they have started an expansion. They invaded neighbour Dagestan. It was a full scale invasion lead by so-called minister of defense of their so-called government. They attacked us in 1999, not the other way around. Their fault. Case is closed.

	21-12-2003 17:30									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Were you 100% behind Serbia in the 90's?

No, 110% behind Clinton.

	21-12-2003 18:39									#57
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Serb, like I said, I don't take sides in this. I see your point, and don't try to claim otherwise to you. Only side I take is Russian side agains terrorists.


The Vagabond, yeah it's kind of in a bad state now.. I don't know if it's the lack of money or what though.

	21-12-2003 22:56									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Hey, I resent the first sentence. We're getting blown with far lesser frequency that you Yanks do in Iraq, but I don't rub it in, do I? Oh, and Yes they should.

Not on a per soldier basis you ain't, AFAIK.

	21-12-2003 22:59									#59
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius CO your right. But remeber that Stalin wiped all the intellectual gene heritage out of russia. They are simply not capable of doing anything right

Holy ****, that's hilarious.

	21-12-2003 23:18									#60
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quote: We need to analyze them a lot, we need to separate them from each other, because they are unique conflicts.

This isn't true in the fullest sense. The Chechens have been spreading pan-muslim jihad and receiving terrorist training in places such as Afghanistan. Further, there have been some Arab jihadists participating in the fighting. Lastly, there has been a lot of funding and support for the Chechens come through the organizations of the likes of al Qaeda. This is something more than loose affiliations but not quite a one organization show.

When the US sent the Taliban to the great sorting facility in the sky, we sent quite a few Arabs and Chechens as well. Russia had a respite in Chechnya because of this. We wiped out wholesale most of the jihadists from other Central Asia countries.