27-12-2003 10:58									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Hockey outside N America is played by effete nonces. No fighting, hardly any checking, it might as well be a girls' game.

Be nice. The Russkies play a good game. Some nice physical play.

	27-12-2003 10:59									#62
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Watched the Canadian juniors blank the Finns today.

	27-12-2003 11:00									#63
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"God loves the Maple Leafs"

I think you're right

	27-12-2003 11:00									#64
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Watched the Canadian juniors blank the Finns today.

Yeah, the Finns were pissed too. On their home turf and all.

	27-12-2003 11:02									#65
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous "God loves the Maple Leafs" I think you're right

Now that's a Ted Striker moment.

	27-12-2003 11:09									#66
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I think that's the first time I've ever even been remotely connected to Ted Striker.

	27-12-2003 13:18									#67
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I think you'd find most Americans would be quite upset if you were arguing making football make tackles illegal and opt for something like flag football. The same thing and talking about making Hockey more of a ***** sport.

	28-12-2003 04:06									#68
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quote: I think you'd find most Americans would be quite upset if you were arguing making football make tackles illegal and opt for something like flag football.

What a HORRIBLE analogy. Of course I expect nothing less from your Asher.

Tackling in football is akin to Checking in hockey, NOT fighting. I never called for ending Checking, just fighting... which is not allowed in football (you get kicked out of the game for that).

	28-12-2003 04:09									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What a HORRIBLE analogy. Of course I expect nothing less from your Asher. Tackling in football is akin to Checking in hockey, NOT fighting. I never called for ending Checking, just fighting... which is not allowed in football (you get kicked out of the game for that).

The point is not in the technicalities, but in the spirit. The spirit of hockey is a ruthless sport, and once you start making rules like no fighting it takes parts of that away into making it MORE like most American sports.

That may appeal to you, but it doesn't to me. Fighting has always been a part of hockey, and it shall remain that way as long as Canadians play it. It adds a different kind of team strategy not seen in many other sports. Take a look at Krzysztof Oliwa has done for the Flames (doens't he lead the league in penalty minutes?). The Flames haven't had an "enforcer" for years, and now that they've got one they get less **** from other teams. If there's a cheap move by another player that isn't caught by a ref (it happens ALL the time), Oliwa is there as soon as he can pounding the guy's face in. It helps keep play honest because the refs are notoriously crap.

The Americans can start their own league and prohibit fighting if they wish, but it shall never happen in the NHL.

If you want a ***** sport, watch Golf instead.

	28-12-2003 04:11									#70
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quote: The point is not in the technicalities, but in the spirit. The spirit of hockey is a ruthless sport, and once you start making rules like no fighting it takes parts of that away into making it MORE like most American sports.

It should be more like American sports .

If hockey was REALLY ruthless, then fighting should be allowed as plays goes on. After all, they stop the game when a fight breaks out... indicating it really ain't part of the game at all. Just a freak sideshow... I guess I see where that resembles Canada .

	28-12-2003 04:17									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It should be more like American sports .

Americans have a nasty habit of being obsessed with the most bland of sports (Baseball, Golf, etc.) Football is the only really interesting sport you guys have, although the CFL rules are definitely better because the games have more variety.

quote: If hockey was REALLY ruthless, then fighting should be allowed as plays goes on. After all, they stop the game when a fight breaks out... indicating it really ain't part of the game at all. Just a freak sideshow... I guess I see where that resembles Canada .

Fighting is a part of hockey that requires a penalty to ensure that games don't degenerate into constant fighting. It's an important part, but it's not the only part.

(I snuck the following into the last post in a stealth edit but you responded before I was done )
Take a look at Krzysztof Oliwa has done for the Flames (doens't he lead the league in penalty minutes?). The Flames haven't had an "enforcer" for years, and now that they've got one they get less **** from other teams. If there's a cheap move by another player that isn't caught by a ref (it happens ALL the time), Oliwa is there as soon as he can pounding the guy's face in. It helps keep play honest because the refs are notoriously crap.

	28-12-2003 04:23									#72
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All I have to say is this: If God loves the dirty scumbags known as the Toronto Maple Leafs, then there is no God.

~reismark, who isn't a hockey fan but still remembers the Darcy Tucker incident very vividly

	28-12-2003 04:23									#73
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quote: Americans have a nasty habit of being obsessed with the most bland of sports (Baseball, Golf, etc.)

Just because you are not familiar with the nuances and greatness of baseball doesn't mean you have to demean it .

quote: Fighting is a part of hockey that requires a penalty to ensure that games don't degenerate into constant fighting.

So are you saying that fighting is a part of... say basketball, because there is a penalty (technical foul and player being kicked out) to ensure that the game doesn't get out of hand?

quote: Take a look at Krzysztof Oliwa has done for the Flames (doens't he lead the league in penalty minutes?). The Flames haven't had an "enforcer" for years, and now that they've got one they get less **** from other teams. If there's a cheap move by another player that isn't caught by a ref (it happens ALL the time), Oliwa is there as soon as he can pounding the guy's face in. It helps keep play honest because the refs are notoriously crap.

Can't that be done WITHOUT fighting? Taking runs at the player that did the dirty dead, etc.

	28-12-2003 04:30									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Just because you are not familiar with the nuances and greatness of baseball doesn't mean you have to demean it .

All of the numbers and statistics involved doesn't make it interesting. It's a terribly boring game from virtually any standpoint you look at it, which is why it's not very popular internationally. Hockey is more popular overseas than Baseball.

They're slow games, there's WAY too much standing around doing nothing, and the games are just dull.

quote: So are you saying that fighting is a part of... say basketball, because there is a penalty (technical foul and player being kicked out) to ensure that the game doesn't get out of hand?

Being kicked out of the game? Hardly the same as a Hockey penalty. Basketball has evolved without it, Hockey has evolved with it. Fighting has always been a part of hockey, and it will remain so despite the cries of ***** Americans who prefer to bomb third-world countries rather than watch two people fight on TV.

quote: Can't that be done WITHOUT fighting? Taking runs at the player that did the dirty dead, etc.

Couldn't you get rid of Saddam WITHOUT fighting?

	28-12-2003 04:33									#75
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quote: It's a terribly boring game from virtually any standpoint you look at it, which is why it's not very popular internationally.

*looks at Japan and Latin America*

quote: They're slow games, there's WAY too much standing around doing nothing, and the games are just dull.

If you consider the chess match of the pitcher/batter matchup dull... then again, I guess all you want is hitting, hitting, hitting. Strategy.. 'What's that' says Asher .

quote: Fighting has always been a part of hockey

That doesn't mean it is best for it. The red line has always been a part of hockey, but there is serious talk of getting rid of it (for two line passes).

	28-12-2003 04:38									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui *looks at Japan and Latin America*

Latin America and Japan -- THE barometers of sport.

The same people who stand in line for Licky Likc Mon Mon Part 4 for 12 hours watch baseball, there's endorsement.

quote: If you consider the chess match of the pitcher/batter matchup dull... then again, I guess all you want is hitting, hitting, hitting. Strategy.. 'What's that' says Asher .

There's more to strategy than throwing different combinations of pitches to a Columbian player spitting tabacco on the ground.

That's another thing...Baseball isn't much of a team sport in comparison.

quote: That doesn't mean it is best for it. The red line has always been a part of hockey, but there is serious talk of getting rid of it (for two line passes).

Most people seem to enjoy it. Ever been to a hockey game when a fight breaks out?

	28-12-2003 04:43									#77
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quote: Latin America and Japan -- THE barometers of sport.

You can admit you are wrong now . And, IIRC, paiktis was talking about the Greek baseball team trying to win the European Championships (though I think Holland won it).

I mean I'd rather have Japan, Cuba, Venzuela than evil Finland, Russia, Czech Republic.

quote: There's more to strategy than throwing different combinations of pitches to a Columbian player spitting tabacco on the ground.

The strategy of what pitch to throw in what area of the plate, based on the batter's strengths and what he has seen before. Yeah, that is very strategic. It's a cat and mouse game... what is each side expecting and what will he be unprepared for.

quote: That's another thing...Baseball isn't much of a team sport in comparison.

That's the point.

quote: Most people seem to enjoy it. Ever been to a hockey game when a fight breaks out?

Yes... but because people 'enjoy' it does that mean we should have a manditory fight every period?

	28-12-2003 04:49									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You can admit you are wrong now . And, IIRC, paiktis was talking about the Greek baseball team trying to win the European Championships (though I think Holland won it).

Every sport has a team in every country.

I'm not necessarily wrong, unless you can prove the populations of Japan and South America are greater than the Russia, Finland, Poland, Czech Republic, England, etc.

quote: I mean I'd rather have Japan, Cuba, Venzuela than evil Finland, Russia, Czech Republic.

Japan: Bombed Pearl Harbour
Cuba: Cuban Missile Crisis
Venzuela: I know too many people who live there

Which ones are evil now?

quote: The strategy of what pitch to throw in what area of the plate, based on the batter's strengths and what he has seen before. Yeah, that is very strategic. It's a cat and mouse game... what is each side expecting and what will he be unprepared for.

It's strategic in the same sense of the viewer deciding at which point he should go to the bathroom...

Also, how is this any different from the forward (pitcher) deciding how and where to shoot at the net (batter)? Plus there's the added complexity of defenders in the way, people to pass to, etc.

quote: That's the point.

Huh?

quote: Yes... but because people 'enjoy' it does that mean we should have a manditory fight every period?

They're not mandatory.

	28-12-2003 05:08									#79
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quote: I'm not necessarily wrong, unless you can prove the populations of Japan and South America are greater than the Russia, Finland, Poland, Czech Republic, England, etc.

You want to count England?

And why should I prove the populations of Latin America and Japan are greater than Eastern Europe (which they may be). YOU made the claim that it isn't popular internationally... and you were wrong.

quote: Also, how is this any different from the forward (pitcher) deciding how and where to shoot at the net (batter)? Plus there's the added complexity of defenders in the way, people to pass to, etc.

Because it is much quickly and less time for strategic planning. Usually most forwards just try to get it on net, and hope for the rebound. The great ones try to aim. It is BECAUSE of the deliberate pace of baseball, where strategy gets imparted. Because you have time to deliberate. Just like chess is more strategic when you have time to plan your moves... as opposed to, say, having 5 seconds to have your move.

quote: Huh?

Baseball is an individualized sport encapsulated in a team sport. There are elements of team sport in the game (defense and running), but the main part is the individual battle.

quote: They're not mandatory.

But you said people enjoy it. So why not have it manditory, right?

	28-12-2003 05:56									#80
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If you'd watched tonights Coach's Corner, Don Cherry devoted most of it to pointing out why fighting should be allowed. A number of cheap shots against good players and swift retribution from their teammates.

Hockey is the sort of game where you can send a low-paid goon out to cripple a Gretzky. So what if he gets suspended if a Gretzky is out for a month? Suspending players doesn't seem to work. Fighting works, fighting is good, fighting is fun.

	30-12-2003 14:29									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui See another Canuck against fighting in hockey. It isn't boxing. The game is pretty enough without all these fighting.

Devil fans are such wimps.

Next you'll be wanting to get rid of checking cause it ain't nice to hit people.

	30-12-2003 14:32									#82
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Devil fans just don't know what good hockey is.

They actually enjoy watching the Devils play. Perhaps they don't realize just how boring neutral zone trapping really is.

	30-12-2003 18:30									#83
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quote: Devil fans are such wimps.

I bet Ranger fans would disagree .

quote: Next you'll be wanting to get rid of checking cause it ain't nice to hit people.

When did I ever say I want to get rid of fighting because it "ain't nice". Checking is an integral part of the game (happens during game flow), fighting ain't. Besides, it's better for PR purposes.

quote: Perhaps they don't realize just how boring neutral zone trapping really is.

If this is the extent of Canadian knowledge of hockey, then Canada has problems.

I never knew that the neutral zone trap now had forecheckers.

--

And what jealousy! I guess winning 3 Cups in 9 years will do that to you... especially from fans of teams like the Leafs and Flames .

	30-12-2003 20:06									#84
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I can't believe anyone would seriously consider taking fighting out of Hockey.

We'd have to form a new game, call it Hockey II: the Revenge.

	31-12-2003 00:13									#85
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Good God.

Fighting is essential.

There are so many ******* things you can do to people in a hockey game and get away with them that the fear of getting your ass kicked by the enforcer on the other side needs to be there.

Plus they're fun to watch.

	31-12-2003 00:14									#86
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****ing Devils ruined the ****ing game for 5 years.

For that the entire state of NJ should be nuked.

	31-12-2003 00:14									#87
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Sorry for building a better mousetrap... we'll just collect our cups and keep on kicking your asses, thank you .

	31-12-2003 00:16									#88
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Pffft.

No matter what else, the vast majority of Devils still have to live in Jersey

That's vengeance enough, I suppose...

	31-12-2003 00:21									#89
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Better than being in Canada at the least .

I'd rather be in the per-capita richest state in the US than live above the border.

	31-12-2003 00:42									#90
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What's so wrong with living above the border in the per-capita richest region and least amount of debt in North America?