30-12-2003 00:35									#121
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Time to post it again:
"American protectionism is the problem!
A December report by the U.S. Agriculture Department estimated that agricultural support in the United States is worth about 21 percent of the country's production value, while it reaches 35 percent in Europe and almost 60 percent in Japan. U.S. tariffs average 12 percent, EU tariffs 30 percent and Japan's almost 50 percent, the report said. The Washington Times January 24, 2003 "

"Ag exports tumble
America's agricultural trade surplus has tumbled from $27 billion to about $12 billion since 1996 while imports have risen 20% and exports have fallen 12%. Modesto Bee 12/09/01"

	30-12-2003 00:39									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha Time to post it again: "American protectionism is the problem! A December report by the U.S. Agriculture Department estimated that agricultural support in the United States is worth about 21 percent of the country's production value, while it reaches 35 percent in Europe and almost 60 percent in Japan. U.S. tariffs average 12 percent, EU tariffs 30 percent and Japan's almost 50 percent, the report said. The Washington Times January 24, 2003 " "Ag exports tumble America's agricultural trade surplus has tumbled from $27 billion to about $12 billion since 1996 while imports have risen 20% and exports have fallen 12%. Modesto Bee 12/09/01"

Whoha, no one has said that the US is any worse than Europe or Japan (quite the opposite, it seems). It's just that they are the current leader of the Western world. And BTW, the agricultural lobby is very strong in Europe (esp. France), and I guess it's too dangerous for politicians to go against their wishes.

	30-12-2003 00:43									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Two wrongs dont make a right. I don't see why our domestic policy needs to be dependant on another country's. Do you? Do you enjoy paying twice for your food and clothing? Do you enjoy paying more for your food and clothes than you would? Do you enjoy having the blood of dead africans, asians, and developing country farmers who can't get a job because of these subsidies? If you voted Bush, Gore, Nader, or not at all, you are morally responsible for their deaths. Think about that the next time you support a policy because somebody else broke their word.

replying to this guy.

	30-12-2003 03:49									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Seriously, I really think the US was more liked during the Cold War than it is right now. People saw it as a barrier against the worse worst. But maybe I'm wrong, since my point of view is exterior. Obviously, I guess the conscripts sent to Vietnam didn't like the presidents of the time much more...

1. A lot of the forces in VietNam were volunteers.
2. It was a noble mission and the carnage that ensued after the North took over (boat people, etc.) just shows how that is true.
3. We got hated and resented plenty during the Cold War. Everybody likes to ***** about the big brother.

	30-12-2003 03:57									#125
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quote: Originally posted by TCO 3. We got hated and resented plenty during the Cold War. Everybody likes to ***** about the big brother.

doesn't help when the big brother is also a jerk.

	30-12-2003 04:06									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Now, Master Zen, that is an interesting reading. Care to suggest me some sources to further my understanding of the topic?

Are you sure you want to read boring economics papers and textbooks? Heck I'm an economist and I can hardly understand some of them!

try www.nber.org or (yes) even the world bank www.worldbank.org , it's much less biased than the Washington Post.... as for books try Nelson and Kim they've got some good stuff on technology and the Asian Tigers success story. I've got more books but I'm not at my home for the next week or so.

	30-12-2003 04:34									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen doesn't help when the big brother is also a jerk.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!

	30-12-2003 04:35									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Are you sure you want to read boring economics papers and textbooks? Heck I'm an economist and I can hardly understand some of them! try www.nber.org or (yes) even the world bank www.worldbank.org , it's much less biased than the Washington Post.... as for books try Nelson and Kim they've got some good stuff on technology and the Asian Tigers success story. I've got more books but I'm not at my home for the next week or so.

Economists are morons. Go read in Brealey and Myers in the bathtub like I did.

	30-12-2003 04:35									#129
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God you're a curmudgeon.

	30-12-2003 04:41									#130
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara God you're a curmudgeon.

I'll have the steak and eggs. Keep the coffee cup filled too.

	30-12-2003 04:42									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Are you sure you want to read boring economics papers and textbooks? Heck I'm an economist and I can hardly understand some of them! try www.nber.org or (yes) even the world bank www.worldbank.org , it's much less biased than the Washington Post.... as for books try Nelson and Kim they've got some good stuff on technology and the Asian Tigers success story. I've got more books but I'm not at my home for the next week or so.

Actually, I'm doing philosophy in College right now... so I don't mind the boring stuff.

Anyway, I'm planning to do two semesters of economy when I'm done with metaphysic and syllogisms, so I might start right now to read basic, easy to understand stuff.

	30-12-2003 04:45									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Actually, I'm doing philosophy in College right now... so I don't mind the boring stuff. Anyway, I'm planning to do two semesters of economy when I'm done with metaphysic and syllogisms, so I might start right now to read basic, easy to understand stuff.

Learn some math first, fluffhead. I really dispise people who take survey courses in macro and don't even understand micro.

	30-12-2003 04:51									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Anyway, I'm planning to do two semesters of economy when I'm done with metaphysic and syllogisms, so I might start right now to read basic, easy to understand stuff.

Um.. while I'm known as an admirer of Aristotle, logic and metaphysics have moved on somewhat since his seminal work.

That's not to say that he can't teach us young whippersnappers a thing or two, but his logic is definitely out of date. But then again 2300 years is a pretty long time to be thought the master of any discipline.

	30-12-2003 04:56									#134
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quote: Originally posted by TCO 1. A lot of the forces in VietNam were volunteers.

And a lot of those who weren't were militant black civil rights activists who got shipped off by white draft boards to "keep them out of the way".

quote: 2. It was a noble mission and the carnage that ensued after the North took over (boat people, etc.) just shows how that is true.

It was a joke. A people had been fighting for years so that they could run their own country, and you lot stepped in on false pretences and supported a corrupt fascist regime. For the Vietnamese this was, and remains, a war of National Liberation.

It's a pity that the nation they finally managed to liberate was a poisoned wreck due to the war. But still, they kicked your ass big time.

quote: 3. We got hated and resented plenty during the Cold War. Everybody likes to ***** about the big brother.

Well, I suppose the Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, Cubans, Chileans, Argentines who suffered under US imposed fascist regimes for reasons that really had nothing to do with the Cold War might have something to complain about.

	30-12-2003 05:00									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And a lot of those who weren't were militant black civil rights activists who got shipped off by white draft boards to "keep them out of the way".

Pu-leez!

quote: It was a joke.

I guess the millions of people who voted with their feet to escape that jail by setting to sea and risking rape and death from pirates and exposure, see it as a big joke. Commies are slavers. I say kill them.

quote: But still, they kicked your ass big time.

They outlasted us. And they defeated the regime in the south. If we had stayed in the war, they had no chance to take over the country.

	30-12-2003 05:02									#136
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1. Is true.

2. People are always trying to leave poor countries and come to rich ones. Mexico being the prime example.

3. Whatever way you look at it, they won. They kicked your ass. The regime in the South was a puppet that had no legitimacy.

	30-12-2003 05:03									#137
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we were hated during the cold war.

	30-12-2003 05:08									#138
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Agathon:

Yeah sure about what you said on Aristotle being outdated. Was it so hard to understand "metaphysic and syllogisms" as a generic periphrase? Anyway that's what they've taught me in the basic courses and you've got to know it when you move higher down the line (I love this expression).

And TCO: you sure don't want me to narrate my whole life, but yes , I do plan on doing some math too to avoid outright idiocy.

	30-12-2003 05:09									#139
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1. Prove it.

2. They didn't run like that before the commies took over.

3. (And you call yourself a logician.)
A. First sentence is pointless, I already agreed that the North won, with certain specifications.
B. Second sentence begs the question: does winning equal ass-kicking? If so, stating that adds nothing to the debate. If it means more (like running up a big score in a sports match as opposed to barely winning), then you need to give some evidence of ass-kicking as opposed to winning. try to follow this, you crappy moron, you...
C. Third sentence is a non-sequiter. Stay on point, professor.

	30-12-2003 05:13									#140
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Actually, in the reading of history I had so far, it came to me that the objective of the US was to destroy Vietnam in order to terrorize other communist guerillas. That's why they spent more on air bombardment and toxic pesticide spilling than real ground efforts.

	30-12-2003 05:14									#141
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Master Zen, from your post it appears that you are advocating short-term protection of local businesses in order that they may become competitive in response to free-trade agreements. Perhaps, but I would prefer that the form of protection be subsidies rather than tariffs so that people can gain to benefit of the new lower-cost higher-quality products from abroad. This would be similar to the way we handled Chrysler when it needed help rather than the way we handled the steel industry when they needed help.

	30-12-2003 05:16									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Actually, in the reading of history I had so far, it came to me that the objective of the US was to destroy Vietnam in order to terrorize other communist guerillas. That's why they spent more on air bombardment and toxic pesticide spilling than real ground efforts.

Gee thanks for weighing in with that in-depth analysis based on your massive knowledge and personal experience. I don't know what we would do without your shining the single photon of your luminous brilliance on this topic.

Now run off and BS some more third rate essays for your semantics take-home final.

	30-12-2003 05:27									#143
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quote: Time to post it again: "American protectionism is the problem! A December report by the U.S. Agriculture Department estimated that agricultural support in the United States is worth about 21 percent of the country's production value, while it reaches 35 percent in Europe and almost 60 percent in Japan. U.S. tariffs average 12 percent, EU tariffs 30 percent and Japan's almost 50 percent, the report said. The Washington Times January 24, 2003 " "Ag exports tumble America's agricultural trade surplus has tumbled from $27 billion to about $12 billion since 1996 while imports have risen 20% and exports have fallen 12%. Modesto Bee 12/09/01"

I dont see how this is a reply.

EDIT: Well maybe i do. Lemme see if I get this right.

As a citizen of america, you cannot be help morally responsible for the mistakes of other countries governments. If they do it, and we don't then we have done our job. If we both do it, then we are both equally guilty.

	30-12-2003 05:29									#144
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Given that our goal in Vietnam was never victory, we could have never won that war. That is why Vietnam was a tragedy and a mistake.

	30-12-2003 05:35									#145
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None of what I said is in the least bit controversial. Go look it up yourself.

	30-12-2003 05:43									#146
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Gee thanks for weighing in with that in-depth analysis based on your massive knowledge and personal experience. I don't know what we would do without your shining the single photon of your luminous brilliance on this topic. Now run off and BS some more third rate essays for your semantics take-home final.

Mind you, I don't always have the time to write "third rate essays for your semantics take-home final". I see no wrong bringing in resumed point of views. Which, by the way, is defended by many historians. I suggest you read a bit more about the history of your pitiful, beotian people before "weighting in" the brilliant prose of your ad hominem genius.

But I can forgive you anyway. How can I blame you of knowing history only from the winning side, since you're part of it anyway?

So, back to the point. Why did the war last so long, cost so much, and used so many bombs (the Vietnam war is the one in which the most explosives were used in all history, even surpassing WW2)? In my mind that is sufficient to ring a bell and try to find an explanation in history books that don't carry on the official, censored version. If it's not for you, well, too bad, but don't go around telling me how wrong I was to do it.

	30-12-2003 05:46									#147
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quote: I suggest you read a bit more about the history of your pitiful, beotian people before "weighting in" the brilliant prose of your ad hominem genius.

Oh delicious irony, I love it so!

	30-12-2003 05:49									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I suggest you read a bit more about the history of your pitiful, beotian people before "weighting in" the brilliant prose of your ad hominem genius. Oh delicious irony, I love it so!

Do you really think TCO abides by the "homo, hominis" definition? Oh delicious irony, I love it even more.

	30-12-2003 05:53									#149
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Are you on drugs?

	30-12-2003 06:15									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Mind you, I don't always have the time to write "third rate essays for your semantics take-home final". I see no wrong bringing in resumed point of views. Which, by the way, is defended by many historians. I suggest you read a bit more about the history of your pitiful, beotian people before "weighting in" the brilliant prose of your ad hominem genius. But I can forgive you anyway. How can I blame you of knowing history only from the winning side, since you're part of it anyway? So, back to the point. Why did the war last so long, cost so much, and used so many bombs (the Vietnam war is the one in which the most explosives were used in all history, even surpassing WW2)? In my mind that is sufficient to ring a bell and try to find an explanation in history books that don't carry on the official, censored version. If it's not for you, well, too bad, but don't go around telling me how wrong I was to do it.

You are too clueless. Get some weathering.