29-12-2003 15:09									#31
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kilos lifted.

	29-12-2003 19:42									#32
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Dunno, do you want to get stronger or get bigger?

I go by kilos lifted but i am not trying to build myself into some Mr Universe, but rather am aiming for maximum power/weight ratio for rowing (which supposedly is at about 96kg (212 or so lbs) and 10% body fat at my height (1m96/6'5")). I am significantly stronger (30-60% more lifting capacity depending on the muscle group)now than i was six months ago, yet have not gained any weight, though I have reduced my fat percentage to 14%.

	29-12-2003 21:16									#33
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I stretch "a lot" before lifting. Its especially important prior to squatting (and at my age). I usually do 3 sets of warmups with 135 for bench or squat. Then head up in weight.

A normal bench workout (when uninjured).

warmup
135 x 10-15 x 3 (3 different grip widths)
225 x 10

work (Competition pauses for all)
315 x 5 x 3

or something like
315 x 3
325 x 3
335 x 3


then inclines or close-grip bench and light assistance work

I cycle my workouts through a percentage of max lift over a period of 3 months, varying the weight and reps that I lift that day.

For squats (competiion depth) I include 315 x 10 as a warmup and do about 5 work sets with 4-500 x 5 to 3 reps. If I'm still walking, I'll do 3 sets of hack squats with a narrow stance for 10-15 reps but with not more than 315. I do light assistance stuff (leg curls etc) but I dont usually do any other heavy leg work.

	29-12-2003 21:40									#34
	Less is More. Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 How do you warmup for lifting? What is your approach to lifting?

My philosophy is less is more. I like to keep my workouts short and as brutal as possible; no longer than 45 mins per session. Usually work one part per day to complete failure.

Chest Day:

Bench press 2-3 sets; 8-10 reps very heavy weight. I dont like the bench press much; it's a good way to blow out a shoulder. But it's a good index for overall upper-body strength.

Incline Dumbell Press 2-3 sets; heavy. Good exercise for building flat bench strenght.

Anything else before 45 mins is up.

Shoulders:

Overhead barbell press, standing or seating. 2-3 sets, 8-10 reps, heavy weight.
Upright Barbell Rows. 2-3 sets, 8/10 reps, heavy
Standing Barbell Shrugs. 3 sets, 15-20 reps, heavy
Anything else if I'm not dead yet

Arms:
Standing Barbell Curl, 3 sets, 8-12 reps, heavy
Closed-Grip Bench press. 3 sets 15-20 reps, not so heay

Back:
Chin ups. (many as I can do)
Bent over barbell rows. 3 sets, 8-10 reps, heavy
Deadlift. 2 sets, 6-8 reps, heavy
Cable rows 2 sets 12-15, not so heavy.

Legs:
Squat. 1 death set of 20 reps, maybe 1 more.
Incline Leg press; 3 sets 10-12 reps. Heavy.
Calves if im still vertical.

Happy Lifting

	29-12-2003 22:05									#35
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I haven't actually lifted in about 2 years. We used to stretch, then do light/medium plyometrics or medicine balls for about 45 min, and then hit the weight room and do pyramids for about 45 min. We did this every other day.

Anymore, I rely on calisthenics. I get up, stretch, and run (generally 1-2 miles), and then I alternate between sets of ten pushups and 20 situps until I can't feel the upper half of my body. I run every day and do calisthenics every other day.

	30-12-2003 00:37									#36
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how much do you guys weigh? I weigh about 150-55, normal height quite skinny.

	30-12-2003 09:53									#37
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54 kgs.

	30-12-2003 12:49									#38
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quote: Originally posted by TCO bullshit. Besides. It's not about the amount of punds. It's about your inner meanness. I did a JTF with the USMC SJTF. they are not as scary as some. Now GEN Lynch. He was that scary. The rest were normal...

it's not the size of the dog in the fight

it's the size of the fight in the dog

	30-12-2003 12:52									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay My philosophy is less is more. I like to keep my workouts short and as brutal as possible; no longer than 45 mins per session. Usually work one part per day to complete failure. Chest Day: Bench press 2-3 sets; 8-10 reps very heavy weight. I dont like the bench press much; it's a good way to blow out a shoulder. But it's a good index for overall upper-body strength. Incline Dumbell Press 2-3 sets; heavy. Good exercise for building flat bench strenght. Anything else before 45 mins is up. Shoulders: Overhead barbell press, standing or seating. 2-3 sets, 8-10 reps, heavy weight. Upright Barbell Rows. 2-3 sets, 8/10 reps, heavy Standing Barbell Shrugs. 3 sets, 15-20 reps, heavy Anything else if I'm not dead yet Arms: Standing Barbell Curl, 3 sets, 8-12 reps, heavy Closed-Grip Bench press. 3 sets 15-20 reps, not so heay Back: Chin ups. (many as I can do) Bent over barbell rows. 3 sets, 8-10 reps, heavy Deadlift. 2 sets, 6-8 reps, heavy Cable rows 2 sets 12-15, not so heavy. Legs: Squat. 1 death set of 20 reps, maybe 1 more. Incline Leg press; 3 sets 10-12 reps. Heavy. Calves if im still vertical. Happy Lifting

I like this workout ALOT

Though I never liked the 20 rep breathing squats. If you have the balls to pull that off, more power to you though.

	30-12-2003 19:23									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Zero how much do you guys weigh? I weigh about 150-55, normal height quite skinny.

5'6" 225 lbs. I've been up to 242 lbs but that was too heavy for me.

	30-12-2003 21:20									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Zero how much do you guys weigh? I weigh about 150-55, normal height quite skinny.

I was a bit on a lanky side last summer when I started working out early last summer. (6'2" 175). I've put on about 12 pounds by switching to smaller, more frequent meals with quality sources of protein and going with the short explosive workouts I mentioned above. At age 33 Im probably stronger than when I was 20.

For me, it's not even the physical thing. I gain a lot of mental confidence by simply willing myself to go up against the pain, and it pours over into other aspects of my life. It keeps me both sane and confident.

	30-12-2003 21:33									#42
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In the past, I've had very good results from lifting slowly, (increased time under pressure), and I mean lifting very slowly, approx 15 sec. down and 5 to 10 seconds up, with no pause at the end of the rep.

The weights that can be used is much less than can be used under normal circumstances, but in the end the strength increase (in my experience) is much greater.

After working out under constant tension for 6 weeks, I was able to put about 45lbs onto max bench when I switched back to "normal" speeds.

I've had a layoff of over a year, so I've lost much of my previous gains
...but my new years resolution is to start up again, beginning with the constant tension techniques

	31-12-2003 00:35									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I like this workout ALOT Though I never liked the 20 rep breathing squats. If you have the balls to pull that off, more power to you though.

I agree, nice workout, although I would add one more set of 4-6(or failure) to each exercise, really give the muscles a final burn especially if you can get an assist from a partner. I love the mega squat set idea. I think I even told Ted about that way back. I had a friend when I was powerlifting that did these insane sets of 50 squats and not sissy weight, heavy weight. He would fall on his ass and puke after, but the guy had legs of steel.

I missed most of this thread, but I will add some stuff now.

Sava is right that lifting is a great fat loss method. It is actually the best overall plan if you want to lose weight and put on muscle. The body is a pretty complex machine, doing odd things like cutting carbs, adding more meals, lifting weights can actually trigger the body to burn more energy in the form of calories and use fat rather than muscle for that energy. Keep the body fueled with vitamins and good protein and you can become a super model like Ted Striker in a short time

As for the folks that don't get sore after lifting, THEN YOUR NOT REALLY LIFTING!! The body grows by forcing it beyond what it can normally take, essentially muscles rip and heal bigger and stronger to handle the new workload, so some soreness is inevitable if your doing things right.

As for warmups and stretching, most lifters warm up before sets, but it is really a good idea to stretch not only before a workout, but during. This helps the ligaments and tendons adapt to new stresses and hopefully to packing on some more muscle which again changes the way things connect and work.

Heavy weights = bigger muscles, there is no debate there. Faster sets also means more fat burning, slower sets with good rest are better for mass building.

I am on a new diet and exercise routine as we speak. My body has sustained too many injuries over the years and I have to alter what I can do. I am way past my prime so I have to be careful, back and shoulder injuries reoccur easily, especially at my size. My journey will be a long one as I am trying to lose bodyweight and go into my later years lighter than I have ever been(heavy men die sooner, thats just a fact). At one point I weighed 272lbs with 9% body fat, of course that was also with the help of mild anabolics. I have pushed as high as 315lbs, but haven't been below 200lbs since I was young.Hobbies of powerlifting and sports gave me muscle, but age has put a layer of fat over top(ok ok 2 layers). My goal now is to hit that elusive 199lbs by Christmas 2004 and 185lbs by age 40. I am at a stealthy 265lbs now so it will be a hell fight I look more like a WWF/WWE wrestler than a hollywood hunk so I am hoping I don't lose that tough guy look Oh and have I mentioned how much I love donuts, starchy foods and Coke? LMAO

	31-12-2003 01:27									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Zero how much do you guys weigh? I weigh about 150-55, normal height quite skinny.

6'5", 198lbs at the moment.

I like the workout described, looks good for overall body development. I am trying to resist from going that route, as there's just certain muscles i don't really need in rowing and it would just be extra weight (pecs for example, biceps to a lesser extent).

As for food, I go for the anti-Atkins diet 60% carbs, 30% protein, 10% fat approximately. I supplement my diet with RDA values for most trace elements and vitamins and the like.

	31-12-2003 01:33									#45
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quote: agree, nice workout, although I would add one more set of 4-6(or failure) to each exercise, really give the muscles a final burn especially if you can get an assist from a partner. I

Nah. These are, for the most part, barbell compound exercises, and if one exercise doesn't hit that one group enough, then chances are you'll get it the next day or the next. Less is more. My experience is that muscles need less, but more intense, work and longer recovery to build consistent strength.

	31-12-2003 01:44									#46
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue As for food, I go for the anti-Atkins diet 60% carbs, 30% protein, 10% fat approximately. I supplement my diet with RDA values for most trace elements and vitamins and the like.

The only time I will allow myself any carbs is immediately following a workout. Intense lifting/cardio drops your blood sugar so far down that your body goes into an anaebolic state - it starts going after muscle for energy. A quick easily digestible source of carbs like orange juice corrects that situation.

I don't do Atkins, but I do extremely large amounts of protein and extremely small amounts of carbs/fats and huge quantities of water. The water is absolutely essential. And if you are lifting for size/strength, you are not maximizing your efforts in the gym if you do not consume at least 1 gram protein per body weight per day. That is actually conservative. Many nutritionists advocate 1.5 or 2 times body weight in protein grams....

	31-12-2003 01:52									#47
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Part of my thing is that i don't only do the weights. The weights is a part of an overall training schedule that consists of a lot aerobic work (rowing). So I need my carbs and i need a lot of them. I do supplement my protein after weight sessions.

On average I'll row about 50km a week on the water, 30 or so on the machine (but more semi sprint work: 2k (as a guideline sit on a ergo rowing machine and try pulling below 6:30, if you can, go join the nearest rowing club) and 5k's), 4 weight sessions and core stability and flexibility stuff throughout.

On average i spend about 20 hrs a week on this, and usually take in about 3500 kcals a day. Burning it off faster than I can I shovel it in though (an hour's reasonably intensive rowing is about 1800 kcals).

	31-12-2003 01:53									#48
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Jac, I use the same approach to lifting as you do. I don't think you mentioned what you do to warmup for lifting, though....

You also mentioned something else that I can identify with - shoulder problems associated with bench press. For me, it just started as an irritation between the right side of my neck and right shoulder. Then I began to fail on sets because of this pain and not because of muscle failure. I kept trying to work through it and then I was doing a triceps extension one day and got a sharp pain in my shoulder. Turns out I've got arthritis in the shoulder - I'm only 34! Now I'm faced with finding a different approach to lifting because the doctor told me no overhead pressing and that I should only attempt bench press if I use light weight...... I guarantee you I will find some way to get back to lifting heavy weight. It just may not happen right away...

	31-12-2003 02:22									#49
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quote: Jac, I use the same approach to lifting as you do. I don't think you mentioned what you do to warmup for lifting, though....

For legs, Ill ride a cardio bike fast and stretch for about 10-15 minutes. For upper body, Ill run through a quick circuit on the exercise machines. I'm lucky to belong to one of the nicest YMCA here in Detroit so it's great to have these things. Your results may vary.

quote: You also mentioned something else that I can identify with - shoulder problems associated with bench press. For me, it just started as an irritation between the right side of my neck and right shoulder.

Same here with some rotator cuff problems, although I think the lifting has helped in the past months. Like I said, I stay away from the flat bench except as an "index" of upper-body strength. Some weeks I skip it altogether.

quote: And if you are lifting for size/strength, you are not maximizing your efforts in the gym if you do not consume at least 1 gram protein per body weight per day. That is actually conservative. Many nutritionists advocate 1.5 or 2 times body weight in protein grams....

Im sorry, but this is way,way, way too much protein. If you're a serious bodybuilder or triathlete, you might be looking to consume that much. Even at 1 gram per pound of bodyweight, and supplementing with tuna, chicken, milk, beans, and nuts, I'm maybe consuming 130-140g a day tops, and that is plenty enough.

	31-12-2003 08:46									#50
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I have to agree with the quote Jac, depending on your ability to digest protein 1 gram is minimal, 1.5 to 2 is more for the big growth. Like I always tell people just try it for a while and see what happens. I have seen people grow with less than a gram per and I have seen people not grow at all with 2 grams per. Everybody is different, but coming from the land of the powerlifting and bodybuilding everyone thinks more is better

If I may ask Jac, how old are you? Seems you have a pretty solid training routine. How long have you been lifting?

Shoulder pain sucks, I overtrained my shoulders for years, now I need an ibuprofen after presses. The warmer I am in the gym the less pain I feel, also a nice icepack now and then seems to alleviate the stiffness.

	31-12-2003 15:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 I lift over 200 pounds every day.

I should've mentioned I do this by getting out of bed.

	31-12-2003 18:26									#52
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Two most important injury preventers:

1) Keep your hamstrings loose. You should be able to lay your head down on your ankle. To keep your back safe you have to have flexible hamstrings.

2) Build and maintain a strong rotator cuff. ANY pressing movement will tax the shoulders and the rotator cuff will wear down or become prone to tearing

Random thoughts:

1) Squats are the best mass builder but can wreck serious havoc on your body.

2) Bench isn't the best mass builder and has wrecked many guys' shoulders. Other things like dumbell bench, or dips can pack on mass with a way lower risk of injury. Do dumbell bench with 100+ pound dumbells and tell me you aren't growing! Even the hammer strength machines are good mass builders.

vlad is a good guy to listen to for those of you that have questions

	31-12-2003 18:31									#53
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I do serious weightlifting everytime I take a pee.

	31-12-2003 18:33									#54
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does dumbbell bench harm my shoulders too?

	31-12-2003 18:55									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Two most important injury preventers: 1) Keep your hamstrings loose. You should be able to lay your head down on your ankle. To keep your back safe you have to have flexible hamstrings.

I don't stertch at all prior to exercising. Maybe I should consider it.

quote: 2) Build and maintain a strong rotator cuff. ANY pressing movement will tax the shoulders and the rotator cuff will wear down or become prone to tearing

Please go into more detail of how to build/maintain rotators as I will need to do this to cope with my shoulder problems as I work to get back to the heavy weight I was once lifting.

quote: Random thoughts: 1) Squats are the best mass builder but can wreck serious havoc on your body.

The knees can really be damaged if you are not using proper form. ALWAYS make sure that your kneecaps do not go beyond the tips of your toes when you are at the bottom of the motion.

	31-12-2003 19:07									#56
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quote: Originally posted by vlad Shoulder pain sucks, I overtrained my shoulders for years, now I need an ibuprofen after presses. The warmer I am in the gym the less pain I feel, also a nice icepack now and then seems to alleviate the stiffness.

So you are not concerned about doing further damage to your shoulders at this point? All you need to deal with then is the inflammation, correct? Do you take any other vitamins/supplements besides ibuprofen? (Man, if I take that I'll have to stop drinking!)

Can you go into a little more detail about your warmup prior to lifting? You said before that you stretch before and inbetween sets. I guess there are specific stretch motions related to each bodypart that I should know. As I said before, my warmup = warmup sets and no stetching. I do a series of progressively heavy warmup sets per bodypart prior to doing a series of exercises for that bodypart.

	31-12-2003 19:12									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion does dumbbell bench harm my shoulders too?

I believe dumbbell bench is less harmful to shoulders than barbell bench because your range of motion with barbell is more restricted.

	31-12-2003 19:55									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Two most important injury preventers: 1) Keep your hamstrings loose. You should be able to lay your head down on your ankle. To keep your back safe you have to have flexible hamstrings.

Flexibility is important to prevent injury, but I doubt I could ever put my head on my ankles (isnt that something from the kama sutra?)

Another injury preventer is to stay warm- literally. More injuries happen in cold environments than warm ones, hence the "warm-up".

quote: 2) Bench isn't the best mass builder and has wrecked many guys' shoulders. Other things like dumbell bench, or dips can pack on mass with a way lower risk of injury. Do dumbell bench with 100+ pound dumbells and tell me you aren't growing! Even the hammer strength machines are good mass builders.

Dips with weight can be very hard on the rotators, especially as you age. Dips done on a machine are better but its virtually impossible to go over bodyweight without doing some very odd stuff.

The problem with heavy dumbells is that they are damn dangerous. Even if you stay within weight that you can handle for say 10 reps, the mass of the dumbells becomes a problem when lifting them up, laying back on the bench, etc when much over 100% of body weight.

If you weigh 200lbs and work with 100lb dumbells the problems are bad enough, I bench near 400lbs (180 Kg) in competition and working with 150lb+ dumbells is ****in crazy.

Dumbells are good assistance training, just stay away from max-type lifts and forced reps!

	31-12-2003 20:31									#59
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Has anyone ever used a behind-the-back triceps press machine? I think the final straw for my shoulder was attempting to use this machine with heavy weight. My elbows went way higher than my shoulders at the top of the motion giving me a really awkward and unusual stretch of the shoulders.

	31-12-2003 21:59									#60
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For triceps, cable pulldown is probably the safest and eliminates shoulders pretty much.

Here's a cardio challenge for you. Run as far as you can in twelve minutes. A good sign of how fit you are..I used to struggle to make 2km (), but am on around 2.37km at the moment.