08-01-2004 09:31									#31
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Arrian p.s. WF = "work force" I used to say "citizen" but being part of the American Imperialist (tm) team in the MZO C3C Demogame has exposed me to E_T and his use of WF.

Just wait until you start confusing non-DGers with the keypad terminology for wf palcements!

	08-01-2004 22:18									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

In my mind, there's absolutely no reason to even consider moving. If this were a MP game, you wouldn't even consider moving that settler. Time IS money.

There are very few instances where I would consider moving.



Mo D

	08-01-2004 22:39									#33
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

just ragenerate your map

	08-01-2004 22:56									#34
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It obviously isn't MP. In SP it will definitely pay off to move off the bonus Grassland at least. There are more hills in the area than you can use early on, so building on one of them makes sense from a food standpoint. Over the course of a SP game (on Monarch), you'll easily repay the lost turns many times over.

Even in MP it might be best to move onto one of the Hills for defense. Depends on the type of MP game and who your opponents are. That city site probably isn't going to be very defensible with coastal Hills leading up to it from the N and S, while it's on flats.

	08-01-2004 23:00									#35
	Got spare money?

Speaking of such early things, does anyone join the worker into the first city immediately?

	08-01-2004 23:08									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Agreed - it isn't MP. And it is an easier SP level. Of course, you can get away with moving in this situation. I'd say the harder the game and the more unpredictable your opponent, the less it makes sense to move.

I personally still wouldn't move for the extra defense, though I do understand why you'd say that. I believe that this city would not be likely to be attacked as you'll settle in a ring around it (no, I'm not talking RCP either). The point is that it LOOKS to be in a spot that would be difficult for enemies to get to, unless they do it very early.

I guess I go with hunches, instinct, and experience in these situations, and my instinct tells me "settle now".

I'd be very interested to see some more screenshots as the game progresses.


Mo D

	08-01-2004 23:10									#37
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Smiley Speaking of such early things, does anyone join the worker into the first city immediately?

I've tried this many times (though I haven't done "scientific" tests), and my experience tells me that this is ALMOST always a bad idea.


Mo D

	08-01-2004 23:56									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Just wait until you start confusing non-DGers with the keypad terminology for wf palcements!

I haven't converted to that yet. Since the MZO demogame is still rather young, I can just specify a few tiles based on their description. Soon, however, I'm going to need to start typing things like:

Washington WF 6-7-1-10



-Arrian

	09-01-2004 00:06									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I haven't converted to that yet. Since the MZO demogame is still rather young, I can just specify a few tiles based on their description. Soon, however, I'm going to need to start typing things like: Washington WF 6-7-1-10

Luckily Arnelos and I are somewhat used to using that terminology too or we'd all be in trouble. But it does make it easier when you have a bunch of WF orders to specify.

	09-01-2004 00:09									#40
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: The point is that it LOOKS to be in a spot that would be difficult for enemies to get to, unless they do it very early.

I'm not sure I get your aversion to moving then. The only real danger in moving is that you'll get attacked early, and that lost turn or two will give your attacker the edge. If you're not accounting for an early attack, then the economic advantage of moving will have time to pay off. Either way I think it's more valuable to at least move off the bonus Grassland onto a Hill.

The only downside I see is if you're beaten by 1 turn to a tech, and lose out on trading. Given that you don't have a river start, it's a good bet you'll end up behind in the tech race anyways. Moving to the river could help a lot in that regard, or slightly hurt.

quote: I guess I go with hunches, instinct, and experience in these situations, and my instinct tells me "settle now".

When it really matters I go with what I can see and calculate out (which does include probability for unseen things). My guess is that moving to the river is the best move if you expect to survive more than 20-30 turns, but I would definitely work out exactly what timeframe would be needed to have it pay off if it were a game I cared about.

	09-01-2004 00:31									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

is that a hut at 21 on theseus' starting position?

	09-01-2004 00:37									#42
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Aeson I'm not sure I get your aversion to moving then.

I'm worried about the lost production and exploration time.

Maybe you're right, though; maybe moving to the hill or river is the best course of action. Maybe Theseus could play out the game three different ways for a little while.

1) settle now
2) move 1 space to hill on coast then settle
3) move to river then settle

Whaddya think? I'd be interested to see how each scenario plays out.


Mo D

	09-01-2004 01:49									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Re: the suggestion someone else post a start position...

You know what might be cool, seeing as the game is now a good chunk of the way through the medieval age? Posting the Gathering Storm's start position, and what we ended up doing with it.

-Arrian

	09-01-2004 05:54									#44
	Put an end to popups!

A little bit down the road...

Good eye, Puma!!

Com'on, somebody post another! (and I do like Arrian's idea about the GS start, btw)

Attachment: byz3700.jpg
This has been downloaded 129 time(s).

	09-01-2004 06:16									#45
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oh, and it occurs to me looking back at some of the saves, Aeson's point about Palace location was sort of irrelevant to me at the time... this was C3C BETA 1.12, so I assumed I'd be moving my Palace to a central location at some later date.

This ended up being a very very builder game, for me at least. Again, I have the 4000 BC save if anyone wants it.

	09-01-2004 17:42									#46
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ok, here's a recent start I had that seems very interesting. All random settings except for standard mapsize, came up Sumeria (Enkidu, Agricultural, Scientific). It's on Sid... was looking to test if Theseus' Archers have a chance... but just treat it as your prefered difficulty setting.

Several ways to go with this, what do you do?

Attachment: sumeria4000bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 130 time(s).

	09-01-2004 18:44									#47
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm a CivIII newbie but I'd stay where you are. As you got the palace in the first city, you'll soon be able to get hold of the forests in the distance. It's better to be close to the river afterall, and those hills will come on handly a little later on when you're looking to boost your productivity.

	09-01-2004 19:15									#48
	Put an end to popups!

I might move to the gold hill, and start mining those grasslands like a mofo.

-Arrian

	09-01-2004 19:47									#49
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Move to the Gold Hill and Settle. You'd get the extra Commerce bonus immediately. Otherwise, it would be awhile before you could WF that hill.

Putting the town on the Gold Hill will get 2f from it. With the River and Ag trait, would it ever produce 3f?

Steven

	09-01-2004 20:09									#50
	Support Apolyton

Ahhh yes. That's an easy one. Go for the gold! Nice commerce right away plus the defensive bonus - and you're still on the river. Not much to think about there.


Mo D

	09-01-2004 21:03									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Moving to the Gold hill is a good option, gives you a Forest to work that one turn, and extra commerce. You get the +3 food city tile from Ag regardless of the terrain. (fresh water and/or advanced government of course)

Other good options too...

	09-01-2004 22:26									#52
	Increase Your PM Length

It seems like you seasoned players of this game really like to place your cities on hills. This has been noticed and I'm currently incorporating this into my current game where it happened to be a suitable option. It's a good thing that you can actually learn something from the forum for once, being an old OT-fart as I am.

	10-01-2004 00:11									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Two reasons to build on hills:
- Hills add a defense bonus
- Hills are not very productive in the early game, so moving from a good terrain square to a hill frees up a "good" square and uses up a "bad" one (the city will be unaffected by the underlying terrain except for commerce bonuses)

- Kef

	10-01-2004 01:52									#54
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Doesn't being behind a river add a bonus to defense if the accker has to come from that direction?

	10-01-2004 01:58									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by ftrooper93 Doesn't being behind a river add a bonus to defense if the accker has to come from that direction?

Yes it does.

	10-01-2004 02:44									#56
	Tired of ads?

I would explore with the Worker first, moving either South or East (edit: Why South or East? Because scouting using the cardinal points for movement reveals the most tiles, and both directions yield a Hills tile, which offer the second-best visibility radius after Mountains). I would probably pick South, for no better reason than there appears to be more River tiles in that direction.

If the Worker reveals nothing interesting, I might be tempted to move the Settler in the other direction (the other option I mean, i.e. West if the Worker went South) just to reveal more tiles.

If both directions reveal nothing interesting, I would probably found my capital the next turn anyway, although I would be tempted to move "back" to the Gold. It would depend on what the Settler sees, to some extent.

At any rate, I believe that scouting is the right play here; the Gold is just there to distract you away from your real goal, that is, finding a high-Food city-site for your capital.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 10-01-2004 at 10:09

	10-01-2004 10:41									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: I would explore with the Worker first, moving either South or East (edit: Why South or East? Because the scouting using the cardinal points for movement reveals the most tiles, and both directions yield a Hills tile, which offer the second-best visibility radius behind Mountains).

I agree that if you are considering moving your Settler, unless it's because you are on a bonus tile that you will improve first, you should move your Worker first to Scout. This way you'll be able to make the most informed choice as to where to move your Settler.

quote: I would probably pick South, for no better reason than there appears to be more River tiles in that direction.

Good reasoning. I wish I had been thinking like that! I moved the Worker East, mainly due to the position on the mini-map. I felt there was more likelyhood of Grassland/Forest to the West and Jungle/Marsh South. With random map settings it was mostly a guess though. The Worker didn't see the magic food bonus I hoping for, so the Settler then went South.

quote: At any rate, I believe that scouting is the right play here; the Gold is just there to distract you away from your real goal, that is, finding a high-Food city-site for your capital.

I'd say that the Gold is a good choice still, and depending on the goal of the game can be a better or worse play. Moving the Worker first to explore though, given the position of the Hills.

The river forest you get by moving to the Gold helps the +3 food city squeeze out a few more shields (+2 in one of the first 6 turns, +2 on the growth turn). So moving (W, SW, S, SE, or E) will pay off from a production standpoint in the first 7 turns. I normally prioritize Food, then Production, then Commerce in my games, but the order of Commerce and Production is more a playstyle issue. If Food, Commerce, then Production is the order, moving to the Gold is probably the best move.

------------------

Here's what Dominae would have seen (just the S part with the Worker most likely, right? ):

	10-01-2004 10:44									#58
	Tired of ads?

I just want to say that the 'right' and 'wrong' moves shouldn't be determined by what is seen through those moves. The reasoning behind the moves is what really matters. In this case it isn't so much to find a bonus food source (which may or may not be there), but you're given a good opportunity to see a good deal of what is around without much cost (a Worker turn or two). The likelyhood a better start location for your purposes is pretty high given the lack of early shield production.

Even if you were to move back to the Gold hill, ignoring the Game, you have a better idea of what to do in the future to maximize your efficiency. (ie. improve tiles towards the S instead of N, get a Settler out ASAP to use the Game)

Also, in case anyone was wondering, the archer rush attempt on this map was aborted very early... Carthage is your neighbor.

	10-01-2004 11:04									#59
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Either South or East, it's the luck of the draw that determines in which direction there's a bonus Food resource (if any). With the moves I suggested it turns out that I would have been in the best position (Worker spots Game, Settler moves in same direction to create 4-turn pump with Worker nearby), but it could easily have turned out otherwise.

I agree that the value of information in scouting with the Worker is worth more than just the search for bonus Food tiles, although that is the priority.

What I meant about the Gold is that it's not a good idea to just move the Settler there right away, even though at first glance it appears like the best place to found the capital.

quote: Also, in case anyone was wondering, the archer rush attempt on this map was aborted very early... Carthage is your neighbor.

Archer-rush on Sid, eh?


Dominae

	15-01-2004 19:05									#60
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

OK, the first turn of my latest game (posted on the 'Emperor skills' thread).
What's your opinion?

Attachment: 4000bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 56 time(s).