06-01-2004 01:34									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Do you honestly think that the hordes of Southern frat boys and sorority girls display the flag because they are racist or sorry the South lost? Of course not, it is just a regional thing, especially since ignorant northerns and hippies hate it, and they KNOW IT.

Then why did they only start flying the flag during the Civil Rights movement as an expression of white supremacy?

	06-01-2004 03:29									#32
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I see SlowwHand does not care to continue the discussion even after Chegitz and I gave our answers.



But anyway, no one has been able to answer my question yet.

	06-01-2004 04:02									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Then why did they only start flying the flag during the Civil Rights movement as an expression of white supremacy?

You seem to think everyone does things for the same reason. Like was said, one of the main reasons people fly it is because they know people like you get so pissed off about it. You make it worse by reacting the way you do. You condemn people for waiving the confederate flag around when you flaunt symbols that are equally offensive to some. It's so easy to get over, all you have to do is try.

People are going to associate themselves with symbols according to how they see them. You may ask a person what the confederate banner means to them and you will get different answers from different people. Some will claim it as a symbol of white power. Others will claim it as a symbol of Southern heritiage while others will claim it as the spirit of rebellion. Its the same with other symbols such as the hammer and sickle, the star of david, the cross, the crescent, or the Iron Cross. Remember that being tolerant doesnt only mean people having to look at your symbols but you having to look at other people's as well.

	06-01-2004 04:27									#34
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quote: First, the North had conscription also. The fact that each STATE had conscription has nothing to do with your question.observation, GePap.

Actually, the Confederate government (not the individual states) had conscription. A year before the Federal government had conscription.

	06-01-2004 04:41									#35
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Exactly, you assuming everyone everyone that carries the confederate flag is a white supremacisit is using the same logic that all black people are poor, or all white people are rich. The people YOU saw were like this, but that hardly makes it indicative of any demographic at large.

Awesome though Che, lets take footage of civil rights marches 30-40 years ago and apply it to today. I will go ahead and assume because of your Avatar that you hate Jews, advocate the slaughter of political disidents, and are a general Stalinist becasue of the symbol in your Avatar. Becasue you knoe the god star has always had a static meaning

	06-01-2004 04:54									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Exactly, you assuming everyone everyone that carries the confederate flag is a white supremacisit is using the same logic that all black people are poor, or all white people are rich. The people YOU saw were like this, but that hardly makes it indicative of any demographic at large. Awesome though Che, lets take footage of civil rights marches 30-40 years ago and apply it to today. I will go ahead and assume because of your Avatar that you hate Jews, advocate the slaughter of political disidents, and are a general Stalinist becasue of the symbol in your Avatar. Becasue you knoe the god star has always had a static meaning

True, symbols can have multiple meanings depending on the context or circumstance of its display and use.

So please tell me why the majority of blacks are either indifferent, or offended by the Confederate flag.

	06-01-2004 05:23									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun And I suppose all the viewers of this thread were tongue-tied as to finding an intelligible answer on why the vast majority of blacks do not celebrate the "Lost Cause" mythology as many white Southerners and a number of white Northerners do.

Now why in hell would they do that? Lost cause or not, feedmen or slaves, "house niggers" or "field niggers" or runaways, if you were a black man in the USA or CSA in that era, you were patronized at best, despised and treated as subhuman at worst. If you were a black woman, things could and often did get quite a bit worse, as most all women were viewed as chattel.

Other than you surviving the trip out of Africa, or more likely in those late antebellum days, your parents or grandparents surviving the trip out of Africa and then giving birth to you in a cotton shack or stable, what the hell was there to be celebratin'? Then throw in more than a hundred more years of discrimination and degradation on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line, some of it more overt and vicious, some of it slightly more subtle.

With all that, what exactly in this glorious legacy of American history is there for most blacks to celebrate or embrace, other than mere survival?

	06-01-2004 05:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So please tell me why the majority of blacks are either indifferent, or offended by the Confederate flag.

Because it's been used as a symbol by Kluckers and other *******s, many of whom have no historical or personal connection to the Confederacy.

	06-01-2004 05:28									#39
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All the ones I know, and having lived in the south I know lots of minorities there, and bieng in the military I know lots from everywhere, don't give a damn what flag is bieng waved. Or they think it is funny.

Not to mention all those crowds you see at the various protests, such as the South Carolina capital building, were not form South Carolina. These are people that get their rocks off by traveling from place to place protesting. They are "professionals." It is funny, they actually organize these bus tours like vacations, and thats what they are treated as. Because there was no protests at night. They were all drunk at Five Points with me, and the protest got started a little later the next morning, and not so much screaming and yelling on the second day either, alot of sunglasses and bottled water though.

	06-01-2004 05:34									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Mr. Fun, Nobody supports the Lost Cause, black or white. In fact you are the only one who believes it exists. -Pat

Yeah - who in hell ever said it was lost?

"We'll fight 'em 'til hell freezes over, then we'll fight 'em on the ice" - anonymous private of the 48th Georgia Volunteers, asked by a dumbass Richmond reporter if the ANV still had the will to fight the Yankees after the retreat from Gettysburg.

	06-01-2004 06:06									#41
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Mr. Fun: You should read Kenneth C. Barnes's "The Williams Clan: Mountain Farmers and Union Fighters in North Central Arkansas. It might be interesting to you.

	06-01-2004 08:14									#42
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I'm well aware of Southern Unionists who resisted the Confederacy -- we're talking about my particular area of interest here, but no, I have not read that specific book, Sprayber. It might be worth checking that one out.

	06-01-2004 21:23									#43
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Why don't more Southerners embrace their copperhead ancestry?

	06-01-2004 21:31									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Awesome though Che, lets take footage of civil rights marches 30-40 years ago and apply it to today. I will go ahead and assume because of your Avatar that you hate Jews, advocate the slaughter of political disidents, and are a general Stalinist becasue of the symbol in your Avatar. Becasue you knoe the god star has always had a static meaning

Given that the man in the picture is a Jew and is Leon Trotskty, I'd just laugh heartily at you.

quote: the ones I know, and having lived in the south I know lots of minorities there, and bieng in the military I know lots from everywhere, don't give a damn what flag is bieng waved. Or they think it is funny.

You know, just because you know people doesn't mean they necessarily tell you what they really feel. It's hard to have to educate every dumb SOB in the world about what racist *******s they are, and a lot of the time Black folks just let stuff slide in order to just be able to have a friggin' life.

Since I don't know you or your friends, I can't say what is or is not the case, but it's something of which you should be aware. It may just be that they place a higher value on your friendship than having that discussion with you. It may be that they're just damn tired of having the discussion. It's not as if Black folks like always having to be the Black person.

	06-01-2004 22:20									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Given that the man in the picture is a Jew and is Leon Trotskty, I'd just laugh heartily at you.

Given what happened to Comrade Trotsky and who was responsible, don't laugh too hard.

quote: You know, just because you know people doesn't mean they necessarily tell you what they really feel. It's hard to have to educate every dumb SOB in the world about what racist *******s they are, and a lot of the time Black folks just let stuff slide in order to just be able to have a friggin' life. Since I don't know you or your friends, I can't say what is or is not the case, but it's something of which you should be aware. It may just be that they place a higher value on your friendship than having that discussion with you. It may be that they're just damn tired of having the discussion. It's not as if Black folks like always having to be the Black person.

And the simple fact is a large number of people (far more than those who get bent out of shape) simply don't give a **** about the CSA battle flag. Now if it comes to white sheets and burning crosses, you'll get a much stronger reaction from a lot more folks, but the whole flag thing is way overdone.

	06-01-2004 22:31									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat With all that, what exactly in this glorious legacy of American history is there for most blacks to celebrate or embrace, other than mere survival?

Lets see, the courage and perseverance of their ancestors under slavery, the glory of the 54th Massachusetts, the abolitionists, WEB Dubois, the Harlem renaissance, Jazz, the civil rights movement, the Buffalo soldiers, the Tuskegee airmen, the rights outlined in the declaration. And thats just off the top of my head.

Are there any african american posters here who can better answer MTG's question?

	06-01-2004 22:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why don't more Southerners embrace their copperhead ancestry?

surely you mean their carpetbagger ancestry? It white northeners (especially, but not only, in the lower midwest) who would have copperhead ancestry.

	06-01-2004 22:39									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun True, symbols can have multiple meanings depending on the context or circumstance of its display and use. So please tell me why the majority of blacks are either indifferent, or offended by the Confederate flag.

Obviously symbols mean different things to different people. Since i cant speak as a black, i'll speak as a Jew. Swastikas used as graffiti in this country by wayward youngsters are clearly most of the time meant simply as ways to defy "morality" and to express rebellion, not as political symbols. Yet to my and to other jews it is alway and everywhere (well the possible exception of ancient Buddist sites where no one knew about Nazis) a symbol of mass murder. Or take the crucifix - to christians the beloved symbol of Christs sacrifice, to most atheists a symbol of a religion with which they disagree, to more than a few jews a symbol with overtones of calls of "christ killer", blood guilt, and pogroms. We are shaped by our histories.

	06-01-2004 22:58									#49
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Lets see, the courage and perseverance of their ancestors under slavery,

The legacy of slavery, nice. Something "American" to celebrate, as opposed to something personal, I see.

quote: the glory of the 54th Massachusetts,

Led by inexperienced (though reasonably capable) white officers, directed to pointless slaughter by inept white officers in a suicidal frontal attack on a minor outlying fort on a tertiary front.

quote: the abolitionists,

A minority of liberal whites who wanted to get rid of something that never should have existed, but without which, those people would still be in Africa.

quote: WEB Dubois,

The presence of significant individuals throughout history doesn't make it an aspect of "American" history worth celebrating - black history or pride, maybe, but nothing particularly American except this was the nation and society with which Dubois had to struggle against the usual legacies of racism, patronization and discrimination.

quote: the Harlem renaissance, Jazz, the civil rights movement, the Buffalo soldiers, the Tuskegee airmen, the rights outlined in the declaration. And thats just off the top of my head.

Again, these happened despite, or struggling against, the indifferent to comtemptuous to oppressive to outright lethal background of racism, and many of the items on your list were individual or collective struggles against injustices inflicted by the dominant American society to keep "darkie" in his place.

Certainly, there's a lot of individual courage and struggle and perseverance to be proud of, but that's a cultural and social legacy for American blacks, not a historic or social legacy of the country which inflicted so much injustice on their ancestors.

quote: Are there any african american posters here who can better answer MTG's question?

Carver used to hang around here somewhere, if he's not a poser or DL, but he thinks I'm a redneck *******.

	06-01-2004 23:01									#50
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark surely you mean their carpetbagger ancestry? It white northeners (especially, but not only, in the lower midwest) who would have copperhead ancestry.

Carpetbaggers were Yankees. Traitors who collaborated with them were "scalawags."

	06-01-2004 23:08									#51
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark surely you mean their carpetbagger ancestry? It white northeners (especially, but not only, in the lower midwest) who would have copperhead ancestry.

Nyet. Copperheads were Southern pro-unionists. Butternuts were Northern supporters of the Confederacy. There are a lot more butternuts around today than copperheads, it seams.

Carpetbaggers came after the war, and are still around today. I'm a carpetbagger, as I came to the South for a job.

	06-01-2004 23:22									#52
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Nyet. Copperheads were Southern pro-unionists. Butternuts were Northern supporters of the Confederacy. There are a lot more butternuts around today than copperheads, it seams. Carpetbaggers came after the war, and are still around today. I'm a carpetbagger, as I came to the South for a job.

No southern proUnionists were called Scalawags, ISTR. Copperheads were northern Peace Democrats. Butternuts were midwesterners of southern ancestry, regardless of political affiliation.

I suggest James McPherson's "Battlecry of Freedom for a good one volume history".

	06-01-2004 23:22									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Carpetbaggers were Yankees. Traitors who collaborated with them were "scalawags."

carpetbaggers were yankees indeed. But their descendants would be southerners.

	06-01-2004 23:22									#54
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No, Scalawags were collaborators with the Union occupation.

	06-01-2004 23:24									#55
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Carpterbaggers were Northerners who moved down to the Southern states, and scalawags were white Southerners who supported the Union and/or were advocates for racial equality.

	06-01-2004 23:28									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The legacy of slavery, nice. Something "American" to celebrate, as opposed to something personal, I see. Led by inexperienced (though reasonably capable) white officers, directed to pointless slaughter by inept white officers in a suicidal frontal attack on a minor outlying fort on a tertiary front. A minority of liberal whites who wanted to get rid of something that never should have existed, but without which, those people would still be in Africa. The presence of significant individuals throughout history doesn't make it an aspect of "American" history worth celebrating - black history or pride, maybe, but nothing particularly American except this was the nation and society with which Dubois had to struggle against the usual legacies of racism, patronization and discrimination. Again, these happened despite, or struggling against, the indifferent to comtemptuous to oppressive to outright lethal background of racism, and many of the items on your list were individual or collective struggles against injustices inflicted by the dominant American society to keep "darkie" in his place. Certainly, there's a lot of individual courage and struggle and perseverance to be proud of, but that's a cultural and social legacy for American blacks, not a historic or social legacy of the country which inflicted so much injustice on their ancestors. Carver used to hang around here somewhere, if he's not a poser or DL, but he thinks I'm a redneck *******.

I would suggest that black achievements in the US are also part of american history, and some are uniquely american phenomena. I think the relevant thing is how blacks view them, as part of american pridely or ethnic pride, and thats why id like to see an african american comment. I also suspect from my interactions with african americans that they have pride in the larger achievements of the USA, but id rather not speak for them.


As for abolotionist being a small minority, well so were Continental Soldiers in 1776. Yet we take pride in them nonetheless, and ignore the fence sitters and lukewarm loyalists (the diehard loyalists ARE honored, just on the other side of the 49th parallel) Did they attack something that never should have existed? So, thats often what heroism is.

	06-01-2004 23:32									#57
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I agree with you, lord of the mark. African-American achievements and African-American leaders have always been part of American history.

But let's not focus exclusively on the 54th -- blacks had served in the army and navy since the American Revolution.

	06-01-2004 23:33									#58
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, Scalawags were collaborators with the Union occupation.

Were there any pre-war unionists who didnt become scalawags? nonetheless i think youre right it was a post war term.

Pre-war unionists, who included many prominent planters, were called, AFAIK, just unionists. as opposed to "fireeaters". Wartime unionists, like the East Tennessee mountaineers, were just called traitors, i think (in the south that is).


Copperhead however was a term applied to the northern peace camp. In contrast to butternut, which is a more "ethnic" term, copperhead was a political term

as in "That copperhead Vallandigham got most of his votes in the butternut counties near the Ohio river"

	06-01-2004 23:41									#59
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I'm gonna have to check my notes.

However, I think it unlikely that Notherners would refer to people by the name of a snake only found in the deep South.

	06-01-2004 23:52									#60
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm gonna have to check my notes. However, I think it unlikely that Notherners would refer to people by the name of a snake only found in the deep South.

'The northern copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix mokasen) is the most widely distributed and locally abundant of Pennsylvania's three native venomous snake species. The timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus horridus) and eastern massasauga rattlesnake (Sistrurus catenatus catenatus) are the other two. Copperheads belong to the taxonomic genus Agkistrodon, which includes both Old World and New World species. In North America, there are three species and five subspecies of copperheads. They are widely distributed from Mexico north into the central U.S. and in the east from the tip of Florida to the New England states. The various subspecies display different physical attributes that are usually reflected in the width of the hourglass-like banding patterns on the body. In Pennsylvania, copperheads are found in appropriate habitat in all but the upper portions of the northern tier counties and the extreme northwestern counties. The limit of the copperhead's range in Pennsylvania for the most part coincides with the southern limit of glacial activity. They occur in remote wilderness areas in addition to suburban and sometimes urban areas. '