07-01-2004 23:21									#31
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy "Being a treated like a criminal" means you are punished for being found guilty.

Well I would be treated as I have done something. That's considered police state procedures where I come from and most likely where you come from too.

	07-01-2004 23:26									#32
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

NOOOOOOOO......................................

It's just a police procedure (normal information gathering) NOT POLICE STATE (get the tools out and start torturing people.

There's an important difference here Paiktis - I hope you can see it, I really do.

And the reason for it? Surely you can see? It STOPS PEOPLE FROM SWAPPING PASSPORTS!!!!

Now come on, you have to admit this is a good idea. The way it has been handled is a nuisance... but as I said, I can see this becoming standard practise on ALL flights to EVERYWHERE.

All it takes is one fruitcake backed by someone who has worked out the flaw in the system...

As for Greeks getting pi55ed off about going to the US, well, I would be surprised if some did not feel that way...

	07-01-2004 23:27									#33
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Well I would be treated as I have done something. That's considered police state procedures where I come from and most likely where you come from too.

some years ago i got a temp job in the back offices of a major US bank, performing clerical tasks with bond coupons worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Had to be fingerprinted to get that job - was i being treated like a criminal??? I saw it as reality, given the likelihhod that actual criminals would try to get into such a place and sneak off with some coupons. Later i worked as a substitute teacher in a public school - also needed fingerprinting for that - again, due to concerns about child abuse, etc.

So no, its not treating anyone like a criminal, its a justifiable security procedure. Sorry that Greece is singled out in EU, i presume cause of issues with Greek passports.

	07-01-2004 23:30									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Cruddy, if I can see the difference between torture and fingerprinting? Sure. That doesn't change the fact that I will still be considered under suspicion and be subjected to police state procedures. Not torture, others less physically painfull but surely unacceptable nevertheless.

I'm sure many of my compatriots will pass on going to the US because of this. First there's the terrorism scare and now this, it only weights more heavily.

	07-01-2004 23:33									#35
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I'm sure many of my compatriots will pass on going to the US because of this.

I hope so

	07-01-2004 23:39									#36
	Got spare money?

The only problem with the new restrictions is that it doesn't apply to everyone. France or Britain with their large moslem populations probably have a greater danger of one of their citizens wanting to commit terrorism then Greece does.

	07-01-2004 23:45									#37
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Besides principles I admit it's also a matter of discrimination. So my Italian friend will be able to breeze through but I'll be made to be fingerprinted and photographed? Like a common criminal? Forget it.

	08-01-2004 01:41									#38
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

To all the euros whining about US being police state - they still don't have the personal card ID document for which you have to give fignerprints and take a picture somwhere around the age of 18, and which is obligatory and to my knowledge exists in every european country except Britain. And for example in Croatia carrying it around is mandatory too, or you can get fined approx 20 euros. So I don't consided USA a police state compared to that. /rant

As for Greeks being discriminated against, well, no comment there, US probably have their reasons we don't know about.

	08-01-2004 01:52									#39
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

VetLegion:
This is true, and I hated it to redo my ID with fingerprints. I found it stupid and useless, it really disturbed me. Butat least, my fingerprints are not storaged (it is forbidden by French law, and AFAIK, by European law as well). This information can only be checked by the police if they decide to control my papers.

	08-01-2004 01:58									#40
	Put an end to popups!

The United States was attacked and over 3000 of its people were slaughtered. If a few whiners get their feelings hurt by having to put their finger on a machine and have a photo of them is the price of being able to effectively keep a track of who is coming into the USA, so be it. There are a good number of people who would like to come into our country to try to destroy and we need to be cogniscent of that fact, and if others don't like that they don't have to come.

	08-01-2004 02:11									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This program is called the "U.S. Visit Program" DHS US Visit Program

The following countries are exempted:
Andorra
Austria
Australia
Belgium
Brunei
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Iceland
Italy
Japan
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Monaco
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Portugal
San Marino
Singapore
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom

The problem is really one of credentialling. It's a major problem in identity verification. The countries listed above have met a set of criteria DHS has laid out regarding the verification of idendity. In fact, some countires (England, France and Germany in particular) have agreed to certain biometric standards to be used in registering visitors and tracking foreigners in both USA and when US citizens go to participating countries.

Many countries can't, or won't, change their visa, passport and other credentialling processes. I was not aware of the Greek method for issuing these documents, but I agree that is at least part of the reason for Greece not being on the list.

So, the sword cuts both ways. Both foreigners visiting the US AND US citizens visiting certain foreign countries. It's actually the program objective of the new biometric and surveillance systems being deployed now and into the near future at all US points of entry. The same biometric template will be used for identification and verification in both the US and another participating countries (like Germany, France, UK).

Some of the reason of a slow deployment cycle of these systems is due to: interoperability difficulites between biometric systems made by different vendors; the inherent vulnerabilities in fooling biometric systems; and the more advanced European privacy laws regarding personal identity, use of personal information etc. The Europeans are far more advanced to the US in the field of biometrics and privacy law. Many biometric standards groups, advanced development of these technologies is happening in Europe.

Most of the world is moving together towards these objectives, just at different speeds.

	12-01-2004 19:10									#42
	Re: Oh well... Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Greece is the only country of the European Union whose citizens will have to go through the new security measures... fingerprinting and photographs. Pity.

No, Poland is as well, and probably some more as well.

	12-01-2004 19:53									#43
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

For many years now whenever I enter an office building in the UK - which I do every working day - I must pass security guards, show a pass or sign in and (often) be spoken for or escorted.

Meanwhile when I travel on the underground I must keep any litter in my pocket because the litter bins were long ago removed.

I pass Downing Street most days and there are gates which block the road off and police officers permanently stationed there to help keep people at a distance.

It was not so when I was young. No one then thought security guards needed anywhere other than on army bases, litter bins were in plentiful supply whether on the underground or elsewhere and you could walk up and gawp at No.10 whenever you liked.

The changes gradually happened in response to one IRA incident or another.

There are two troubles with all this. The first is that the safety involve expense, in money and minor inconvenience which, when you add it up, is wholly disproportionate to the rather remote risks which the measures address. Secondly the general effect is to heighten tensions and to make people feel less secure not more secure.

And the present measures are going to ratchet this process up another notch or two.

Instead of sanctioning government to spend more and more effort upon intelligence operations (which are ineffective and open to abuse), demanding of government that it keep us safe from terrorist outrages, and focusing on preventing terrorist attacks by counter measures we would do much better to reassure ourselves that we live in a world where the threat from our fellow man is far, far lower than it has ever been before - and getting lower all the time; and to focus on such reasons as there are left in the world which lead some groups still to become disaffected.

Because the USA is the target of choice for so many of the disaffected I would hazard the guess that jealousy of material well being lies at the root of most terrorism. No doubt via a sense of inadequacy and powerlessness within the individuals concerned.

It is my belief that were we to focus on the task of finding an equitable way to distribute the huge wealth that has been and is being created by the machine the task of eradicting disaffection at its roots would be almost trivial.

Whereas the present measures to treat the symptoms, including the amassing of some ludicrous library of fingerprints and photos, are - like security guards, doing without litter bins and erecting steel gates - just silly.

	13-01-2004 09:48									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

That's a very thoughtful post EST. I appreciate the fact there are people that think this way in the world.

People think a police state is fiction and that it could never happen in a democracy or USA .... perhaps and perhaps not.

	13-01-2004 10:38									#45
	Suffering from ads?

Damn people what is the big deal. I recently had to be finger printed and had a guy from CID come and investigate me because my security clearence had to be renewed. When I first got it a dozen years ago, it was simple and I never even knew it was done but these days things are different.

	13-01-2004 10:44									#46
	Put an end to popups!

You joined the military. We didn't.

	13-01-2004 10:54									#47
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You joined the military. We didn't.

Keep telling yourself that while they fit you for your uniform after Canada is forced to send troops in support of their overlords to the south.

	13-01-2004 10:55									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If that happened Cuba would find itself with another pretty good physicist on its hands.

	13-01-2004 10:57									#49
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse If that happened Cuba would find itself with another pretty good physicist on its hands.

You mean the future marshalling area for the grand armies?

	13-01-2004 10:59									#50
	Remove this text

I'll build them a few nukes to keep you away.

While I'm at it I'll grab Gitmo to build a mansion and send the hordes of suspected terrorists toward the US on leaky rafts to see how many you were right about...

	13-01-2004 11:03									#51
	Tired of ads?

I can see where people may be a little pissed about this and I'm not sure how effective it would even be but I wouldnt protest being finger printed if I went to a foreign country as long as the process wasn't too bad..

	13-01-2004 11:06									#52
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I might be fingerprinted in 2 days when I return. I'm not sure whether Canadian F1s will be.

I will be annoyed if I am. If I had to be fingerprinted and could avoid visiting the US easily (i.e. on vacation) I would not visit the US.

	13-01-2004 11:06									#53
	Remove this text

Also, those entering via land borders will not be fingerprinted, FYI.

	13-01-2004 11:15									#54
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Also, those entering via land borders will not be fingerprinted, FYI.

Which goes back to me questioning how effective it will actually be but you have to start somewhere.