13-01-2004 03:52									#31
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everything is dicey in the future, wonders-wise.

we have to keep in mind that lego not only has a palace-prebuild going on, but they have used their no-build sistine to mask-build bachs (or vice versa)

I say, if they switch it one more time, we build sistine's.


oh, and vox gets a free tech, pray its nationalism

	13-01-2004 04:20									#32
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Lego is probably not bend on invasion of Stormia, they do not really need a war to win, if everyone stays home.

In fact if I were in their shoes and an invasion was planned by BoB, I would aid GS. They would prefer (it seems to me) that everyone was stuck with the land they have.

Maybe I am paranoid, but if I was Lego, I would not expect BoB to let me have any land in Stormia. That would seal the game for Lego.

	13-01-2004 04:24									#33
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We can use Sisine as a prebuild to force them to actually build it. If some view that a violation, so is not completing it to allow using it as a prebuild. Both are violations of the spirit, so if they can engage in it, that opens the door for the others.

	13-01-2004 04:27									#34
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actually, in our discussions with them regarding sistine, we did say we might use it as a prebuild, they didn't have a prolbem with that,iirc

	13-01-2004 07:13									#35
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I guess you could color me confused.

How the heck do we plan to win this?

Builder? Spaceship?

Marines? (my god, that would be a feat for the ages)

Nukes? (and what would that say about humankind? )

Seriously, CH has done an awesome job in turning the ship... but to where?

	13-01-2004 07:37									#36
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Two words:


United Nations


but seriously...

How can we win? I don't know either.

Can lego win via culture? can they gain enough separation, 2x? can they reach 20k (in jackson, I suppose...)

If nothing changes on bob, this game will either be space or a 2050 score. I imagine nukes will start flying once the space race is begun...

Taking Vox and RP out of the equation, who can win and how.

ND/GoW/GS: culture is out of the question now probably
ND/GoW: Domination by unifying bob and taking a portion of us or lego. Dicey proposition for even the former req.
Lego: easiest for them to get domination, as they already own a huge continent themselves. Lots of knights, 10-15 at least on bob for a possible stab at ND/GoW territory.

Leaving Space, Diplo, and retirement most likely IMHO. Though I can see GoW screwing this up by allying with lego vs nd, not realizing what they are doing...

I would stake my life on not having one of uranium (need desperately for nukes, beyond the ss parts) aluminum, and rubber. And who the hell would trade us those things?

Diplo-we need to build the UN. We can never hold a vote. Both Lego and GS have 2 votes, leaving GoW who we all know which way they would go, and ND ????. I can't remember how the damn thing even works, we might not even be up for election if bob explodes in pop.

I need to check out the current stats in C3C tomorrrow to see the cultural situation precisely.

	13-01-2004 12:14									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus RP and Banking : I think I've indicated to Togas that faster Banking would be good - but no reply yet, and if they're going 40-turn - especially if 1 scientist 40-turn, it might not happen any quicker.

Not at this point and with their economy. They are 15 turns and 15 beakers into it. They don't have 980 some odd beakers to plow into it over the next 10 turns, or 15, or 20, or 25.

Best to grab their gold and do it ourselves.

Have to be careful with the 40 turn projects, as experience is pointing out to me.

	13-01-2004 14:56									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian How many shields is ToE? 600? ... Lego, however, will most likely be in a GA (I expect them to build Smith's). And I'd expect them to have a prebuild timed out to be ready as soon as they have Scientific Method. So our mission, if we choose to accept it, is to a) beat Lego to SM; and b) have a prebuild ready to complete ToE the very next turn. ... p.s. How big is our "palace" build? If we don't have enough cities, the palace will be too small to use as a full prebuild for some of the largest wonders.

ToE is 600 shields. Our Palace holds 700. Tempest could get another 7 shields from rails, minus say 1 corruption for 27spt would reduce it down to 23 turns. Assuming no tech trades, and that we have coal, we'll have to research Medicine, Electricity and Sci Method - plus Industrialisation. That lot will take more than 23 turns, so the prebuild would probably start on or around getting Steam Power.

	13-01-2004 15:01									#39
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It would cost a few settlers, (easier with rails) but could we sink a few temp cities to bump up the palace shields if desperate, then disband once the Palace build had been started on 1000 shields?

	13-01-2004 15:20									#40
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Not at this point and with their economy. They are 15 turns and 15 beakers into it. They don't have 980 some odd beakers to plow into it over the next 10 turns, or 15, or 20, or 25. Best to grab their gold and do it ourselves. Have to be careful with the 40 turn projects, as experience is pointing out to me.

How do we know they're 15 beakers and 15 turns in? That's 25 turns to go, and we'd be probably/possibly researching our last Middle Age tech by then.

If we wanted to try and head off Lego to Smiths we'd have to dash for Banking ourselves (5 turns) then go for Economics, but that looks like chasing a lost cause. However, when Lego get Smith's, wow - that's GA and five techs in 20 turns - the 5 left for advancing to industrial. Throw in the worst case of Steam from Vox and whoosh. Game over, surely. Only answer is a GAUL (Grand Alliance to Undermine Lego) - by trade embargo, but Lego can still keep size 12 cities happy with both happy wonders and all happy builds, or a war targetting Lego's strategic resources and wonders.

If only ND were keeping their GL for Smiths, and were one turn from Banking.

	13-01-2004 15:35									#41
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Good work on chatting with Big Free , NYE.

If BF is prepared to make peace with GoW, this is a good sign that RP are ready to end the cold war.

We have to decide whether to wait maybe 25 turns for Banking, or get it ourselves sooner.

	13-01-2004 16:36									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus How the heck do we plan to win this?

Realistically, there's no obvious path for any civ with bad dice at the start of the game, including us. No amount of skill and planning can turn sea tiles into land.

The best answer to the question is 'we have to keep on the pace as best as possible, wait and see what openings arrive'. It may not sound like much of a plan, but while there are random and human elements, who knows?

As far as Victory Conditions go, we 're hardly in pole position for any of them. If we get sufficient culture builds in over the next 30 turns, we might be able to head off a Lego culture victory - but we can't win on that score unless Legonian cities get demolished. I don't see it going to 2050, somehow, and Nukes would probably put a stop to any Space program.

What follows is amusing speculation only and would certainly be shot down in flames if seriously propsed : What if we could build the U.N, rehouse Vox in Estonia the turn before and thus buy their vote for a total of three? We'd have done them two favours to Lego's one. Of course there are a myriad of complications and uncertainties, but it's a remote possibility, and probably no more remote than any other victory condition...

	13-01-2004 17:27									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus It would cost a few settlers, (easier with rails) but could we sink a few temp cities to bump up the palace shields if desperate, then disband once the Palace build had been started on 1000 shields?

euh... I thought that the moment you disband the temp cities, the palace cost goes back down? So if you start a prebuild when it's 100 shields, disband cities, it will go down to 700 again...

Not sure if this is what you meant

DeepO

	13-01-2004 18:00									#44
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

OK - if the build box goes back to previous size, then that's a no no.

	13-01-2004 18:22									#45
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Check to be sure, but that's what I thought, yes.

DeepO