14-01-2004 00:24									#31
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Having lived in Holland for 6 months, I'm very confident in describing it as a mongrel nation (much like my own, before anyone says I'm having a dig).

Sorry, big tall blonde types don't dominate the social makeup - they're their, but so are black people, Indonesians and of course a quarter (? what I've been told anyone) are Brits working abroad.

Yeah, maybe Frisians most Nordic, but too much of a melting pot to really be definitive.

	14-01-2004 03:38									#32
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Aha. So England was ruled by a succession of Danes, most of our northern islands and a large chunk of Scotland were ruled by Norwegians for 500 years, the northern half of England was largely Danish for centuries and Harold Hardrada had a real claim on the English crown- yet the little nation of tulips and cannabis thinks it's more Scandinavian than us.

	14-01-2004 03:51									#33
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That's right Laz! Viking blood runs in the English veins. Just look at Paul Scholes.

	14-01-2004 04:08									#34
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England's parliamentary system owes as much to Scandinavian 'things' or 'dings' as it does to the republican past of Greece or Rome.

In the north east of England, women are 'wives' even when unmarried, babies and small children are 'bairns' and cows abide in 'byres'.

And of course we have the wonderful legacy of 'Beowulf', 'The Seafarer' and 'The Battle of Maldon' in Anglo-Saxon literature. And of course, law- as in Danelaw.

So a big Up Helly Aa and skol to our Nordic cousins.

	14-01-2004 04:23									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Aha. So England was ruled by a succession of Danes, most of our northern islands and a large chunk of Scotland were ruled by Norwegians for 500 years, the northern half of England was largely Danish for centuries and Harold Hardrada had a real claim on the English crown- yet the little nation of tulips and cannabis thinks it's more Scandinavian than us.

No, Petteri Tuohinen of the Helsinki Sanomat does. I never encountered a single Dutch person who seriously thought so.

There *is* a case to be made for Frisians being Nordic, but Frisians are to the Dutch what the Irish or the Scottish are to the English. This also explains the testimonies by the Dutch people in that article: all but one of the are Frisians, and the one who isn't sounds like a moron to me ("we're all Nordics 'cause we all eat fish" - yeah, so do the Japanese ).

	14-01-2004 04:26									#36
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The Netherlands Nordic? Nah they're way to liberal when it comes to drugs and alcohol. And they're catholic too aren't they.

	14-01-2004 04:28									#37
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No, actually we're protestant (with sizeable catholic, atheist and muslim minorities, of course). You're probably confused with Belgium.

	14-01-2004 04:36									#38
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ok, but are you lutheran?

I know some Dutch who are catholics, you see, so I just jumped to the conclusion that you're all catholics. Silly me.
Lots of Calvinists?

	14-01-2004 04:43									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Exactly, and once again it must be pointed out that Scandinavia is the four countries whose languages are Scandinavian.

Actually I'm pretty sure I was taught that Scandinavia is DK, NO and SE. Not Iceland. Sure they've got a Scandinavian language, but they're not IN Scandinavia. I've heard the terms "the three Scandinavian countries" and "the five Nordic countries" plenty of times, but never "the four Scandinavian countries".

	14-01-2004 04:52									#40
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Nope, the very reason why the Netherlands and Belgium are two different countries is because the Belgians are/were predominantly Catholic and wanted to remain under the Spanish crown while the Dutch didn't really fancy the Inquisition thingie, being predominantly protestant and all, and revolted.

Not a Christian myself so I don't know the differences between all the various subgroups (like Lutherians, Calvinists, etc), but I understand most Dutch people are Calvinists, though they're subdivided in three or four smaller subgroups and I never really understood who's who. (There are 'hervormden', 'gereformeerden' (both translate as Reformed), 'evangelisten' and 'lutherianen' -- and then there are Jehovah's Witnesses of which we seem to have quite a few, at least where I live, but I have no idea where they belong.)

There's a very large minority of Catholics though (especially in the south, near the Belgian border), so not it's all that illogical to assume the Netherlands is a Catholic country.

	14-01-2004 06:13									#41
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i think that the netherlands is one of most atheist countries in the world... but for the rest locutus is right... recently the 4 subgroups merged to some new church....dont know what that is all about...

	14-01-2004 06:46									#42
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The first article in this thread was nothing but a bunch of racist drivel. Which makes the discussion of the topic....what?

	14-01-2004 14:07									#43
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There are some provocative statements about the cultural differences between Northern and Southern Europe made in the article, but I wouldn't call it racist.

So, what's the history of the Frisians?

	14-01-2004 14:53									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Nope, the very reason why the Netherlands and Belgium are two different countries is because the Belgians are/were predominantly Catholic and wanted to remain under the Spanish crown while the Dutch didn't really fancy the Inquisition thingie, being predominantly protestant and all, and revolted.

Umm, we revolted too. You were lucky that Farnese was recalled to Flanders in order to prepare the invasion of England, otherwise the lowlands would have been 1 catholic country.

	14-01-2004 16:44									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Aivo½so So, what's the history of the Frisians?

They migrated from southern Scandinavia to the northern part of the Netherlands and north-west Germany a couple of centuries BC, then some of them moved on to England in early medieval times (English and Frisian are the most closely related modern Germanic languages) while others remained and mingled with the Jutes, Anlges and Saxons and other Scandinavians who migrated into Frisia around the same time. For centuries the Frisians were a major Northern European power and maintained a large trade network in the Northern European waters (North Sea, Baltic Sea) and at their height (7th century AD) built up an empire (Magna Frisia) that stretched the North Sea coast from Belgium to Denmark. Their religion was Germanic, like the Scandinavians of the time, not Christian like their Frankish neighbours to the south and east. Their culture and traditions also resembled the Scandinavians more than the Frankish. They were eventually conquered by the Franks in the 8th century and forced to adopt Christianity, but in their heartland (present-day Frisia) they maintained their own language and traditions, which still exist today.

Whether the Frisians should be seen as Nordic, Germanic, Anglo-Saxon or a unique group in their own right is debatable. They're pretty much a little bit of everything if you ask me...

quote: Originally posted by dannubis Umm, we revolted too.

Hmm, from what I know, the southern provinces which are now Belgium formed the League of Arras, which supported the Spanish throne. Not sure what you're referring to, but that's not very rebellious behaviour if you ask me.

Then again, I'm by no means an expert on Belgian history, so there may have been revolts I'm not aware off...

	14-01-2004 19:56									#46
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The Spanish retake of Antwerp and subsequent closure of its harbor in 1585 practically ended the golden age of the southern netherlands.

As far as i know (i've not had these history classes in ten years) the southern league was formed after the rebellion in the south had been crushed.

Furthermore, Bruges and Ghent also joined the rebellion, but they were recaptured by the spanish relatively early. The cities further to the south stayed loyal to the spanish crown.