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Dominae
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The Conquistador is barely playable in stock. Similarly for the Chasqui Scout. You're arguing that the 15-Shield Jag is in same boat as these two; alexman and I (among others) are arguing that it's not.
Edit: Let me elaborate. At 20 Shields, it's pretty clear (to me anyways) that the Chasqui Scout is no better than 2 Scouts. Actually, it's worse; the only thing it has going for it is that it can trigger your GA. For the Conquistador, you can get pretty creative with the 6 MPs, but most of the time it's just better to have an extra Knight. But this is not the right thread to discuss such things.
Like I said, comparing the 10-Shield variant to the 15-Shield one will only show us that 10 Shields is better. But we know that. What we want to figure out first is whether or not the 15-Shield version is playable or not.
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 29-02-2004 at 06:47
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alexman
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Hunt Valley, MD
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
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I played a bit with the Aztecs and Incas in debug, and here's what happens.
They both build their UU (as well as Archers) when they need an offensive unit. When they need a defensive unit, they build Spearmen instead (or Warriors if they don't know Bronze, or if they need a unit immediately).
The problem is that at higher levels the AI starts with many offensive units already, so there is no hurry to build more. As a result, they can spend their entire expansion phase building nothing but Spearmen and Settlers.
When the expansion phase ends, both these civilizations start building their UU (intermixed with other offensive units), but then it's too late to make a difference.
In PTW the Aztecs started with a bunch of Jaguar Warriors, so that's why you saw them more often. They also built Jags for defense until they discovered Bronze Working.
Last edited by alexman on 19-05-2004 at 23:50
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:33
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920AD. I finished the Aztecs off. Late, because I needed them as research partners until I made other contacts.
That one Jaguar Warrior I killed was the only one the Aztecs had in the entire game. I'm pretty sure, they never got a GA. They built two wonders (Oracle and Artemis), but that didn't help them either. They're not even religious anymore.
They did not build their UU after their expansion phase. Not a single one, despite the fact they had neither iron nor horses (it's Conquests after all). They built loads of Archers (which I killed later as Longbowmen), but not a single Jag.
Overall it was a pity to see the Aztecs that teethless. I think the JW should have its cost lowered to 10 and get in the Warrior upgrade path again. This is largely a single player mod, so I don't see any obstacle for that change.
Last edited by Sir Ralph on 20-05-2004 at 05:29
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ducki
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quote:
In PTW the Aztecs started with a bunch of Jaguar Warriors |
I was just going to suggest changing their starting units from warriors to jaggies.
Any support there?
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ducki
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Yes, I should have said let the Aztec have Jaggies as their offensive starter unit.
IMO, the Jaggie is far more valuable on the vast majority of maps for the Aztecs than Archers - as starting units.
Better in the same way that some here would much rather have a military comprised of Horsemen at 2-1-2 than Swordsmen at 3-2-1.
So I propose we replace the Aztec AIs starting Offensive units with Jaguar Warriors.
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Krill
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On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:33
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well, why not give the JW the defense flag, so the AI picks them instead of normal warriors? (and make the JW upgrade to horseman. That would solve your problem, alex).
Last edited by Krill on 20-05-2004 at 20:24
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ducki
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I think Jaggies should upgrade to swords, not horses.
Would the AI still explore and attack with Jaggies if they were flagged as defense?
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alexman
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Hunt Valley, MD
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
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Unlike offensive starting units, it seems that the defensive starting units are the units with the highest defensive strength (with a tie resolved in favor of the first unit in the editor). AI defensive flag does not matter. So the AI still starts with Archers and Warriors, even if Jaguar Warriors are marked as defensive...
Last edited by alexman on 20-05-2004 at 21:06
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The pirate
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Whilst the next AU version is being considered, can I make a plea to get the jaguar looked at again:
As a SP I might play the Aztects 1/32, but I encounter them 1/4 (standard map etc), and I feel that the loss the of the jaguar from AI civs is too much to pay for balancing the Aztecs as a human civ, or to address MP concerns.
As an upgraded warrior, the jaguar is unique and powerful for early wars, but with early GA risks etc.
At present in C3C the jaguar is similar to the chariot and chasqui scout and the debate about tactics for the jag has echoed the dicussions on those units.
If the change made in C3C to the jaguar had been a AU proposal, would it have been accepted?
If not, can the change back to pre C3c be proposed not as a change from stock, and the presumption to do nothing, but a change back to stock and the presumption to do something?
This applies to SP only - MP I accept is different. Since there is discussion of a MP AU mod, and what differences from an SP version it would have, I would put this forward as an example.
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pvzh
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Canada
Aug 2002
time: 01:33
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Umm... Why not do something cute: make warriors upgrade to jags, so Aztecs will not have warriors period! To compensate for this, improve jags by adding +1 HP and/or defensive bombardment 1, 0-range, 1-RoF.
Price 15 shields is not that high penalty for swordsman upgrade, besides if you did not trigger you GA, you can build jag and upgrade it to swordsman without need to go into connect-disconnect iron.
Edit: I ran some calculations with CivIII Combat Calculator (v1.33)
Here are results: assuming that you want to rush spearmen defended town on flat terrain with regular fortified spearment
code:
| Experience
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Result
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Jag.
Warrior
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Jag.
Warrior +1HP
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Archer
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| Veteran
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Win
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19.5% |
28%
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50.85%
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| Loss
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39.7% |
37.8%
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49.15%
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| Draw
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40.8% |
24.2%
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N/A
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| Elite
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Win
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27.9% |
36.6%
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63.4%
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| Loss
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33.15% |
31.3%
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36.6%
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| Draw
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38.95% |
32.1%
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N/A
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Obviously, with neither jags, your chances are fairly low to rush AI successfully on the Emperor and above, so I think it is safe to add both +1HP and defensive bombardment 1/0/1 (strength/range/RoF)
Last edited by pvzh on 30-11-2004 at 02:49
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29-02-2004 02:24
I saw the Aztecs with Warriors, Archers, and Spear Men, but not a single JW! 
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