21-01-2004 21:59									#31
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quote: Originally posted by alexman It also helps the AI because they can get contacts they would otherwise not have, and increase their trade opportunities. It helps them, and it helps the human too. That will happen whenever you add strategic options to the game!

Have you ever seen an AI go without contact with another civ on its home continent all the way until long enough after Monotheism to build a small wonder? If so, how often, and on what map settings? You make it sound as if AIs would normally be expected to benefit in terms of greater contact and trade opportunities, and from my experience, I find it hard to believe that.

	21-01-2004 22:30									#32
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In PTW, you would never see an AI in the middle ages without contacts with its continent. In C3C I have had AI civilizations in the Middle Ages without contacts to their whole continent (OK, it was only in one out of the two games I have played). They got contacts only after another AI got Printing Press.

Obviously, this would happen more often when you have large or crowded continents, especially pangaeas with little ocean, but in my case it was just a standard map with 5 civilizations on my home continent. The top and bottom civs had no contact.

	21-01-2004 22:47									#33
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quote: a standard map with 5 civilizations on my home continent. The top and bottom civs had no contact.

That doesn't really strike me as a)in need of a remedy or b)justification for a new building.
If they didn't get their explorers out fast enough to meet each other before there were lots of borders blocking travel, I don't really think a new small wonder spitting out explorers is a "good" change.
I think it's perfectly acceptible for a civ(human or AI) on one end of a largish, well-populated continent to not have contact with a civ(human or AI) on the opposite end. Advantageous to said civs? Absolutely not.
Good gameplay? Quite possibly.
Believable and acceptible? Definitely, in my opinion.
I've played at least a dozen C3C games to the end of expansion and have yet to see AIs on the same landmass(large and small, crowded or sparse) not have contact. I think we're just seeing "randomness" in a good way. Actually, in your example, I think it may even be good for the AI(as a group) to have the possibility of AI middlemen instead of being limited to just an intercontinental human middleman.
Bad for the two AIs that don't know each other, sure, but good for the AIs in the middle that just might be able to beat the player to so good brokerage deals in-between-turns.
That's just my opinion, though. I'm probably in the minority there.

	21-01-2004 22:50									#34
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quote: Originally posted by ducki That's just my opinion, though. I'm probably in the minority there.

Actually, it sounds like I'm in the minority, especially if my game was a fluke.

	21-01-2004 23:08									#35
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I hope it wasn't a fluke, personally. I really would like to see some AIs as middlemen and others as their client-states, which is probably never going to happen on separate continents.

	22-01-2004 00:21									#36
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I have seen this too (especially the one time I tried Kal-El's world map with 31 civs )

	23-01-2004 05:19									#37
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Something ducki wrote triggered a thought:

Is there some way to tie Explorers to Harbors in such a way that AI civs build Harbors more quickly?

Now THAT would be useful!

	10-02-2004 21:39									#38
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I've seen some posts in this threat that some people aren't sure about AI not having contacts with others. I'm playing a game right now on a huge map that is a 60% water, single continent (with 1 small arctic island) [and modded to 31 civs with no other change], and there are scads of civs at one end of the continent that don't know those on the other, even after I've traded communications for as much as I could extort out (I'm lucky enough to be in the middle, and was coastal as the Vikings: I got contact with everyone but one during my ancient exploration phase.)

The game hasn't had navigation discovered quite yet, but the AI right now could use an exploration unit. So could I, as there are plenty of black spots all over the map. It's amazing how quickly the map closed up as a single-continent, 31-civ game. By the time I got 2/3 of the way out, there were entire lines of borders formed that I couldn't legitimately cross. I'm glad I was coastal and was able to ring the island with a couple Carraghs. Wow, I just said I got good use out of the seafaring trait on a typically not-seafaring map.

Anyway, explorers in this game would be godsent. When I did make an ROP with a nation, they immediately had a convoy going through my territory to explore the unexplored to the other side of me. (Of course, I'd already sold them contact with the immediate neighbors over there.)

	31-03-2004 23:36									#39
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What is the explorer was changed to be a weak ocean-going ship?

The Spanish UU could be an ocean going ship that would be more suitable for combat(war galleon?).

This would made the explorer useful for exploring, as well as usuable by the AI for something useful (transoceanic contacts). Also, it would mitigate the disadvantage the AI is at for not using suicide exploration.

	01-04-2004 00:27									#40
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A bit radical for this mod, IMHO.

A 1-1-1 ATAR amphibious unit, on the other hand...

	01-04-2004 00:38									#41
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Evil in the hands of the AI, alexman.
With my habit of no defenders in all but the frontline cities, I would definitely have to change that. No coastal city would be safe without defenders.

	01-04-2004 03:29									#42
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I don't see how changing the explorer to a ship will have a radical effect on human gameplay/feel.

The stock explorer is almost never used or built.

The proposed purpose of the new explorer(ocean traversal) is already done by the human with the caravel.

	01-04-2004 04:04									#43
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quote: Originally posted by alexman A 1-1-1 ATAR amphibious unit, on the other hand...

Giving the Explorer combat capabilities would destroy its ability to travel through AI territory without being ordered to leave or declare war. I've never explored what can be done with that ability myself (if you'll pardon the pun), but my impression is that there are those who have and have found it useful in some situations - especially since the unit can pillage. Even if you don't want to declare war against an AI with an Explorer already inside its borders, how about declaring war with your Explorer in the territory of a neutral AI (possibly after having travelled through your target's territory to get there) and then moving him in to pillage?

I suspect that if I ever got into a habit of looking for opportunities to use those guys, I could find them worthwhile from time to time. That's especially true in Communism, where upkeep costs are less of an issue. And if that is true, I think what we ought to do is engage in a discussion of how to make good use of Explorers as they now are instead of trying to find ways to change them.

Nathan

	07-04-2004 01:25									#44
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Giving the Explorer combat capabilities would destroy its ability to travel through AI territory without being ordered to leave or declare war. Nathan

Nope. I play with 1-1-2 ATAR (flaged Offensive and Explore) Explorer and the AI doesn't go to the "or else" stage. Its more like trying to move workers through the AI's territory.

I think of it is my XPLR news team.

On the other hand the AI tends to escort them with a defensive unit, which defeats the whole purpose.

	07-04-2004 02:31									#45
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quote: On the other hand the AI tends to escort them with a defensive unit, which defeats the whole purpose.

So flag them Defensive and Explore (?)

	24-04-2004 20:57									#46
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In my game, I gave them the ability to build roads, outposts, and colonies. (Just my thoughts)

	24-04-2004 22:00									#47
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New Change (from stock): Scouts and Explorers are airliftable, but may NOT pillage.

(edit:typo)

Last edited by Jaybe on 26-04-2004 at 02:38

	25-04-2004 06:31									#48
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What are you using scouts and explorers for after you have Flight?

	26-04-2004 03:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 What are you using scouts and explorers for after you have Flight?

Without pillage ability? Not much, but they are still a source of recon if your fighters are not there. There are also applications during peace.
How is a group of 1-200 people without heavy weapons going to cower the countryside's inhabitants enough to let them pillage their farms and industries?? It doesn't make sense, and I cannot believe I didn't see it years sooner. (Besides, have you EVER seen the AI even USE, much less pillage with, an explorer (Conquistador excluded))?

That however, will soon change. The main function of the explorer is to "explore" -- to seek out new civilizations, the lay of the land. If you are looking for a semi-historical feel (such as in the Rhye's of Civ mod) explorers STILL have too much movement, and is being reduced to ONE, still all terrain as roads.

... and if 6 tiles is too much in a 170x170 map, (nudge, nudge).