29-01-2004 18:13									#61
	Resupply is taken care off through movement cost Support Apolyton

No offense, but I do not appreciate the proposed support system. Clever thinking on the implementation but I do not see it as an enhancement to the game.

Sending out a warrior to wander is quite legitimat to my opinion. Early on it takes decades to move on a little. I would like to think that foraging is one of the concerns why it takes them that much time. Later on armies move on faster because they are able to carry with them small supplies. Population is getting somewhat more dense and along the way there are more places to aquire or plunder food.

My main concern however is unnecessary complicating te game. If the AI is not good enough to be a worthy opponent, either move on to a higher level or plead for/ suggest improvements to it.
Ever tried to explain the game to someone into trying to make him/her enthusiastic? People appeal to the concept but the treshold is quite high to get started with all the available concepts. I would like to see more people joining the community.

Some people to disagree at least adds to a discussion...

Last comment. How would units move around before you found a city? And what would the game do if you just don't found a city and aquire units through huts? I know, bit too much of a hypothesis...

	29-01-2004 21:32									#62
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Reminder: The Civilization Games General/Future forum is a much better place for Civ 4 ideas. Particularly because similar ideas are being made and sorted by catagory so, should Firaxis choose to read them, they will be able to see what we would like in Civ 4.

The trouble with the Civ 4 forums is that they are a bit tucked away in a corner. The "exploring the world by 1000 BC" and the "deep strikes with no consequences" problems, which the suggestion addresses, are pretty important -- it's nice to see a thread regarding them in a more frequented forum.

Still, I admit the logic of what you're saying. Perhaps after discussion in this thread settles down somewhat, a copy or an abstract can be placed in the Civ 4 forums.

USC

	29-01-2004 23:40									#63
	Re: Resupply is taken care off through movement cost Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by McMeadows Population is getting somewhat more dense and along the way there are more places to aquire or plunder food.

It's not just about food, but also about ammo etc. Supply considerations are an important part of warfare, especially in modern times. A good example of this would be the Battle of the Bulge in WWII. For awhile it looked like the Germans might have been able to drive the Allies back to the sea, but then their tanks started running out of fuel and the whole counterattack ground to a halt. Adding supply into the game would add a whole new strategic/tactical element to the game IMO.

quote: My main concern however is unnecessary complicating te game. If the AI is not good enough to be a worthy opponent, either move on to a higher level or plead for/ suggest improvements to it. Ever tried to explain the game to someone into trying to make him/her enthusiastic? People appeal to the concept but the treshold is quite high to get started with all the available concepts. I would like to see more people joining the community.

If handled correctly, it doesn't have to become overly confusing. I think the way I've come up with would be rather intuitive frankly. If you want to travel further, then simply add some supply units to the stack. Any calculations required would be handled in the background. While thinking about all this, I kept thinking about Master of Orion 2. Although the map in the game was puny compared to Civ, having range limitations in place added alot of strategic considerations and made the game interesting.

quote: Last comment. How would units move around before you found a city? And what would the game do if you just don't found a city and aquire units through huts? I know, bit too much of a hypothesis...

My idea is that units that are outside oftheir range wouldbe able to travel back towards a supply source, they just can't move forward away from one. And though they might lose some hitpoints along the way, it would be a probablity only so they might be able to make back to their home territority. It would work much the same way that the Choppers used to work in Alpha Centauri.

	30-01-2004 01:32									#64
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I haven't got that much experience with many other games. Got stuck with Civ and a few other games. MOO2 and AC are therefore not familiar to me.

Again, I'd like to state that in the timespan of a game's turn the units in the field have plenty of time to resupply. Even for petrol and ammo. For my care you could just think of one of those guys carrying the whole lot.

I'm thinking of more work to be done during turns. Like moving around with workers later in the game. It's part of the fun I agree, but sometimes it feels so repetitive. I don't see that much benefit for it to game pleasure.
I feel the tactical part is overrated. People with some experience will just add it to the stack and only newbies might have some supply units wander about. Isn't garding settler's and transports muchg of the same tactics?

Supplying islolated cities can the other hand have my support.

	30-01-2004 01:45									#65
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by McMeadows Isn't guarding settler's and transports much of the same tactics?

I agree that this would be too tedious - that's why i don't like the idea of supply lines, or supply units. Besides from a realism standpoint no army has ever supplied a military unit in foreign territory for very long; unless cities, ports etc. are secured as bases of supply (there by making it YOUR territory) Military units should have a only limited time to wander around uncharted territory or wander around enemy territory.

Explorer or scout units could have longer/unlimited time to live in uncharted areas, but I've always envisioned units in Civ games representing about division strength (3000 men give or take) and 3000 men can not hunt for their food nor can they indefinitely pillage for their food or supplies. Simply put they need supply from an agricultural/industrial center.

I don't think it complicates things too much to have HP loss when away from your territory, and only re-supply when you are in your territory. It simply adds another layer of interest to the game (one that could probably be easily toggled off if you don't like it BTW)

	31-01-2004 04:44									#66
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Im sorry i dont agree... supply lines do exist, in the form of roads/railroads....

when its near industrial age I always make sure to bombard the surrounding area's railroads before I attack the city. This is to stop the enemy immediately bringing all their units to the area and putting up some stiff competition.