21-01-2004 21:56									#31
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quote: Originally posted by WackenOpenAir you can simply compare it with iraq where a bunch of desert rats have taken several US helicopers out of the air already.

Yes, but they didn't do it by throwing a pointy stick at it.

On the other hand, I have never seen a spearmen take out a tank. I believe it could happen with the way the program is written but do not think it is that big a deal. I would curse at the computer screen and then carry on with the game.

	22-01-2004 00:04									#32
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IMHO motorized units shouldn't be destroyed by ancient units (including cavalry and rifleman). They could be damaged to 1hp, of course (think that motors - only ACME brand ! - can be damaged during operation, friendly fire, even a rock of an ancient catapult can damage but not destroy completely them...).

I also think that cavalry and rifleman (and newer non motorized units like infantry) shouldn't be destroyed by older units in open terrain (not including cities). In that kind of terrain, they could be damaged to 1hp, of course.

Anyway, to balance the game and to reflect the impact of wounded units in wars, I also think units with 1hp shouldn't be able to attack . This avoids a pair of tanks taking all the cities of a bronze-age civilization and so on...

I would be very happy with this little changes. They would make the game very realistic!

Another change I would make to the game is that ancient units (excluding cavalry and rifleman) shouldn't be able to take cities (even undefended) of a civilization with nationalism. I think only a pair of cops (especially the two in bad boys film ) can stop a knight unit attacking a city.

	22-01-2004 01:02									#33
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Look at the Spearmen as "militias" that aren't necessarily equipped with spears and fighting in close formation, if you need to. Personally, I've NEVER lost a Tank to a Spearman.

I pay for unit upgrades to get those spearmen up to militia standard (to mustket > rifle etc)

Tank - Spearman is just the most extreme example of an overall problem with the game that needs addressing. Even if it were sorted id still propose the proper battle environment being built in to the game.

Not that we're all going to agree on what "sorted" actually is

	22-01-2004 02:59									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Argos65987 Yes, but they didn't do it by throwing a pointy stick at it.

Why don't you use your imagination? Since everything else in Civilization is more representative than literal, why not imagine that the spearmen have grenades which they throw at the helicopter? Once in a while they manage to wing them through the door and down the helicopter.

	22-01-2004 03:14									#35
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Agreed. I mean, come on people. Can you imagine, in the modern day, ANY civilization, no matter how backwards it is, arming guys with spears?

Just assume that the residual spearman defending that adversary's town is some crappy, poorly-trained, half-starved unit. Or, just imagine that they're French.

	22-01-2004 04:46									#36
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quote: Originally posted by spy14 I pay for unit upgrades to get those spearmen up to militia standard (to mustket > rifle etc) Tank - Spearman is just the most extreme example of an overall problem with the game that needs addressing. Even if it were sorted id still propose the proper battle environment being built in to the game. Not that we're all going to agree on what "sorted" actually is

No, you upgrade them to a trained, disciplined group of soldier equipped with standardized weaponry. They aren't a militia.

	22-01-2004 14:19									#37
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quote: And I completely disagree with Tass.

Well no offense intended, however your disagreement is irrelevant.
I see it with my eyes. And I really did try to overlook it: Pretend it didn't happen at all. But it happend over and over again.
It's actually quite condesending for you, living whereever you are living, to tell me that it's not happening

quote: Everyone saying use your other tanks.

Um: Yes, I can, but thats boring.

quote: Can you imagine, in the modern day, ANY civilization, no matter how backwards it is, arming guys with spears?

Well if we want to be like that: Can you imagine any civilization having one person rule over it for its entire existence?

quote: why not imagine that the spearmen have grenades which they throw at the helicopter?

They seem to have pretty good aim. Especially considering they were trained hundreds of years ago

	22-01-2004 19:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Crimson Sunrise If for some unknown reason historical accuracy is important to you (while playing on Pangaea), you should recall that tanks were sometimes destroyed in World War II by partisans armed with a glass bottle full of gasoline.

Not many tanks were destroyed by Molotov cocktails, and most succesful attacks occurred during urban combat. It takes a mighty brave man to get that close to a tank, especially at ground level. Just the earthquake that a tank causes as it passes close by you is enough to give anyone second thoughts about getting closer.

In any case spearmen are not 'partisans'. Thats the whole point. If the unit has not been upgraded from spearman to partisan, it is a spearman. Improving your units to stay competitive is a big reason to maintain the tech race. If spearmen can beat tanks (even theoretically), whats the point? It shouldnt be impossible for a spearman to defend against a tank, but the chance of a guy with a stick damaging a tank are one in a thousand and the chances of killing a tank 1 in a million (and thats only by digging hidden pits).

	22-01-2004 19:31									#39
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Conflict involves sometimes losing units. I'm more often surprised how well my forces do.

I suggest there are 2 ways to deal with this, but either of them will have to wait to Civ4.

1 - Auto upgrades whether you (or the AI) want them or not. Having some sort of upgrade units available without needing resources.

2 - Obsolete units are automatically disbanded X turns after you get the tech to build a better unit.

Depends on whether the cure is worse than the disease.

	22-01-2004 19:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Crimson Sunrise Why don't you use your imagination? Since everything else in Civilization is more representative than literal, why not imagine that the spearmen have grenades which they throw at the helicopter? Once in a while they manage to wing them through the door and down the helicopter.

Brother, I was just kidding! My second sentence said it never happened to me and I really don't have any issues with it. I just thought it sounded funny.

	22-01-2004 20:42									#41
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I've lost a tank to an Impi once. But my tank was down to 2HP, so that's to be expected.

	23-01-2004 01:00									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Smellincoffee I've lost a tank to an Impi once. But my tank was down to 2HP, so that's to be expected.

When did you last see a drug-fuelled psycho with a spear poke through 9 inch armour?

And to agree with the earlier point, spearmen are NOT partisans, if my spearmen are gonna get grenades or whatever, im gonna have to pay for an upgrade.

	23-01-2004 01:14									#43
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I did see a tank stopped and the driver killed on the freeway in San Diego. A cop shot him with a revolver after the tank got hung up on one of the concrete dividers. Opened the lid and fired on him.
Does that count?

	23-01-2004 01:57									#44
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quote: Originally posted by spy14 When did you last see a drug-fuelled psycho with a spear poke through 9 inch armour?

The Italian invasion of Abyssinia in the 1930's. The locals managed to climb onto several of the Italian Fiat Ansaldo tanks and kill the crews by stabbing them with spears through the vision slits.

A one off only made possible by poorly designed tanks but even so...

	23-01-2004 05:58									#45
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I did see a tank stopped and the driver killed on the freeway in San Diego. A cop shot him with a revolver after the tank got hung up on one of the concrete dividers. Opened the lid and fired on him. Does that count?

aaaa what?

	23-01-2004 08:13									#46
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That was, hmmm maybe 10 years ago now. Some guy got pissed, went nuts, stole a tank from the local NG armory(as I recall). Started running things over, don't think he killed anybody(with the tank), did a lot of damage though. Yeah, no come out with your hands up on that one. They opened the hatch and shot him.

	23-01-2004 08:42									#47
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hmm, I vaguely remember that....

	23-01-2004 08:46									#48
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Anyway...Could SOMEBODY do it for me? (It being change the unit settings to make the game a bit more realistic)
I'm too lazy to do it myself.....Not to mention I don't have the game

	23-01-2004 08:57									#49
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what are you complaining about then

	23-01-2004 10:44									#50
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV The Italian invasion of Abyssinia in the 1930's. The locals managed to climb onto several of the Italian Fiat Ansaldo tanks and kill the crews by stabbing them with spears through the vision slits. A one off only made possible by poorly designed tanks but even so...

Alright. Case closed.

It's a good thing that bombers in Civ3 work the way they do. Then people would be yapping about how spearmen downed a bomber.

	23-01-2004 11:50									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Well no offense intended, however your disagreement is irrelevant.

Actually, what you said was flat out wrong. And it is relevant cause Civ just doesnt play that way. I said I disagreed with you, knowing what you said was just plain wrong. It wasnt an opinion.

quote: I see it with my eyes. And I really did try to overlook it: Pretend it didn't happen at all. But it happend over and over again. It's actually quite condesending for you, living whereever you are living, to tell me that it's not happening

Actually I even said it happened to ME couple of times. Especially with defense modifiers.

I dont understand why you make a big deal out of this as its NOT happening over and over again. Its all percentage chance and one large scale it abides by roughly the correct percentage.

If its a matter of value of 2 losing to an 16, get it in your head! Its based on probability! It would be odd if spears never won against tanks. (once again... especially with defense modifiers!!)

If its a matter of realism, you said so yourself... there other things to worry about... such as same guy ruling the country for 4000 years etc.. And really.... I dont understand realism obsessed freaks..

	23-01-2004 12:01									#52
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quote: what are you complaining about then

I'm saying if it were fixed, I might buy the game. In fact, if it were fixed I *would* buy the game.

quote: Actually, what you said was flat out wrong.

quote: I dont understand why you make a big deal out of this as its NOT happening over and over again.

Sigh.
Yes it is.

	23-01-2004 12:14									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I'm saying if it were fixed, I might buy the game. In fact, if it were fixed I *would* buy the game.

What? Theres nothing to fix. Thats how the game works. Dont buy it.

quote:

quote: Sigh. Yes it is.

No offense, then partly it is your fault. You just suck at civ or dont know how to play it.

	23-01-2004 12:45									#54
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The Comrade likes to troll from time to time.

	23-01-2004 13:31									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Zero No offense, then partly it is your fault. You just suck at civ or dont know how to play it.

"There is no such problem! In fact, it is your fault! You do not know how to play. There is no problem, therefore it needs not be corrected."

Typical...I was expecting a response such as that.

	23-01-2004 13:56									#56
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I remember (plain vanilla civ3) that an elite spearman took out one of my tanks and became a GL! I even let the Romans (I think) make an army for the fun of it (it became a 2 legions, 1 musket army).
I told myself that that particular spearman had in fact a big can-opener.
Anyway, a civ still having spearman around when you have tanks is not a real threat. If it is, then YOU have a real problem.
BTW: civ 3 is not a wargame. Funny that nobody mentioned it.

	23-01-2004 15:40									#57
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I'm puzzled at the suggestion that having player-controlled battles will "solve" the "problem" that inferior units sometimes defeat superior ones. Given that the AI in the game as it stands is inferior to real intelligence, wouldn't we expect players starting to hold off huge mechanised forces with a bunch of guys with rocks every time, once they had learned the tricks of doing so?

	23-01-2004 16:50									#58
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So true!

And for those people that absolutely need an explanation for everything: You pay upkeep for your troops all the time. Don't you think over time the spears get old and the troops will buy some heavier equipment?

I mean... All the game does is take some numbers and throws them at each other. A tank is no tank, it represents an armored division including supply vehicles and artillery, radio, and so on...
Or, more abstract, it represents the ability of your armed forces to strike in that area with an attack value of whatever. The tank itself is just a neat graphical representation for that. Same with spearman. They are no real spearman. They simply are forces with a certain defense value. One you know. So whats the point in complaining about it?

	23-01-2004 20:34									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Todd Hawks So true! And for those people that absolutely need an explanation for everything: You pay upkeep for your troops all the time. Don't you think over time the spears get old and the troops will buy some heavier equipment?

Well, I see a unit of spearman in modern times composed by new men (the older are retired or deceased) who also need to be paid. Unless we consider that the citizens in Civ3 are elves: they don`t die due to age (well, this is the case of the civilization leaders).

But, seriously, I don`t think a motorized unit could be destroyed by a spearman. Damaged to 1 health point at much. Hope this will be solved in Civ4 ...

	23-01-2004 22:51									#60
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We can hope this will be solved but it wont be. Balancing a game like Civ is effing hard to do, and there will always be something that someone wont like