21-01-2004 13:48									#91
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quote: Why call a referrendum on this issue and not others?

I would have agreed with NYE's example of repatriating the constitution ought to have been a referendum, because of the entire 'charterland' experience. It has profoundly changed Canadian society. The same with this issue of marriage.

	21-01-2004 13:49									#92
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NYE: I apologized for going overboard in calling it the Alberta Reich. Again, I'm sorry, it's unfair of me.

The Seinfeld quote I was refering to was at the end of the post, and refered to the Belinda Stronach poll that started the thread. For the record, I don't think she's a Nazi either.

jon.

	21-01-2004 13:56									#93
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quote: Aren't men > women in most religious societies?

Generally the opposite.

NYE:

quote: Are you seriously suggesting that the RC church would permit the marriage of a man to a Hindi woman who was previously married in a Hindu ceremony?

You pose an interesting question. Could the government regulate polygamy under that second option? I'm not sure.

Could you reword that sentence regarding the RC church? I don't know if you are saying the woman married one man who was Hindu and then got married to another Roman Catholic man while still married to the Hindu, or if she married the Roman Catholic man after the Hindu man died.

	21-01-2004 13:57									#94
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quote: Originally posted by joncha NYE: I apologized for going overboard in calling it the Alberta Reich. Again, I'm sorry, it's unfair of me. The Seinfeld quote I was refering to was at the end of the post, and refered to the Belinda Stronach poll that started the thread. For the record, I don't think she's a Nazi either. jon.

All right. I can get past it if I suppose it was not seriously meant, and it never happens again.

	21-01-2004 14:01									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi NYE: You pose an interesting question. Could the government regulate polygamy under that second option? I'm not sure. Could you reword that sentence regarding the RC church? I don't know if you are saying the woman married one man who was Hindu and then got married to another Roman Catholic man while still married to the Hindu, or if she married the Roman Catholic man after the Hindu man died.

I think the feds could govern polygamy regardless. It is exploitative and hence, illegal. <--- Period

I am refering to a Hindi woman divorcing after a Hindu ceremony, and then wanting to be married to an RC man in an RC ceremony. I suspect the RCs would say 'no dice'.

	21-01-2004 14:06									#96
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In other words, I think each sect will be perfectly capable of continuing on when the feds decide to give legal recognition to the cermonies performed for gay couples in progressive churches.

	21-01-2004 14:08									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I would have agreed with NYE's example of repatriating the constitution ought to have been a referendum, because of the entire 'charterland' experience. It has profoundly changed Canadian society. The same with this issue of marriage.

Seems to me like a pretty arbitrary decision. Are you in general unhappy with the way representative democracy works in Canada, or are you choosing this particular issue because you don't like the majority government opinion?

	21-01-2004 14:10									#98
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Also could you justify your opinion that women are typically > men in religious socieities?

	21-01-2004 14:15									#99
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quote: Originally posted by joncha quote: quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Remember the Tories also had Kim Campbell who was easy on the eyes. Kim Campbell? yikes! She's about as "easy on the eyes" as Audrey McLaughlin! It'll the night terrors again for me, now... "Ah! Cobras!" jon.

My thoughts exactly. Campbell? Easy on the eyes? I still shudder to think about it.

And Jon, I see you have been introduced to NYE's world where Easterners are bigots and Vancouver folk are idiots. And he wonders why Albertans have a bad rep.

	21-01-2004 14:19									#100
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So Stronach is pro-choice and in favour of gay marriages.

Time to make Ben the president of the Apolyton for Stronach fan club.

	21-01-2004 14:22									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai My thoughts exactly. Campbell? Easy on the eyes? I still shudder to think about it. And Jon, I see you have been introduced to NYE's world where Easterners are bigots and Vancouver folk are idiots. And he wonders why Albertans have a bad rep.

No, just people who prove it, like you seem to like doing.

	21-01-2004 14:23									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai My thoughts exactly. Campbell? Easy on the eyes? I still shudder to think about it. And Jon, I see you have been introduced to NYE's world where Easterners are bigots and Vancouver folk are idiots. And he wonders why Albertans have a bad rep.

hehe.... good to know.

He was right to call me on the fascist thing, though. Its used way too often where it doesn't apply.

I remember having an argument with an anarchist once upon a time... "No, the cops were not beating you because they're fascists, they were beating you because they're cops and you're a scruffy protestor." Ah, memories.

From now on, I'll just call a tory a tory.

jon.

	21-01-2004 14:41									#103
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quote: I suspect the RCs would say 'no dice'.

Yeah, for reasons of the divorce.

quote: Time to make Ben the president of the Apolyton for Stronach fan club.

Well, she is pretty.

	21-01-2004 14:45									#104
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quote: Each church would perform their own ceremonies, and only those churches that have similar beliefs would recognise each other's marriages.

Doesn't that sort of shoot that idea down?

	21-01-2004 14:51									#105
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quote: Are you in general unhappy with the way representative democracy works in Canada, or are you choosing this particular issue because you don't like the majority government opinion?

Both actually. I want to see a triple E senate, and much better Western representation in Parliament. Right now, with the majority government, they do not need a vote past Winnipeg.

quote: Also could you justify your opinion that women are typically > men in religious socieities?

It's 2 am over here and I have to be up at 7. I believe this to be true from personal experience, and from the opinion of missionaries, that the women often bring the men into church.

	21-01-2004 14:56									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It's 2 am over here and I have to be up at 7. I believe this to be true from personal experience, and from the opinion of missionaries, that the women often bring the men into church.

Same here. We can continue this tomorrow, unless this thread is buried during the night.

	21-01-2004 14:58									#107
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Actually, Ben. the West is equally, or a little more, represented in Parliament by population. Ontario takes a bit of a hit for the smaller provinces.

The Senate, now that is a bird of a different feather. I suspect the cries to reform it will not be heeded, until Alberta and BC come near the population of Ontario (which will happen) and command as many seats in Parliament. Then the cry will ring out, and then I hope that we remember what it was like to be the alienated and outcast.

	21-01-2004 20:19									#108
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Canadian Liberals and NDPers:

Fight the next federal election today. Join the new Conservative party and get it going on the ironic start that it deserves. That's right join the Conservative party.

Think back to the 1980s. The PC party had won two majorities. Things were looking bleak for the Liberals and the NDPers. But, along came the Western right wingers to the rescue. Faced with the success of the PC party, western conservatives naturally rose up and said: "No, we won't take this anymore!" The rise of the Reform Party removed the PC stranglehold on Canada. Never have so few right winger done so much for us sensible folks.

The Reformers gift to us continued for more than a decade as the Canadian right was neutered by in-fighting. Finally, the Reformers, I mean the Alliance, won. The PC party is dead. Now the Reformers dream of leading their party to glory.

But not so fast.

Imagine if Stronach wins the leadership race. Instead of a good ol' Reformer, the Conservative party will be led by a Red Tory, a right winger with a liberal approach to social issues. They'll be spitting fire when the Stronach-led Conservatives vote pro-choice and in favour of gay majors.

Ah, the sweet irony. The Reformers spend years destroying the right, only to get a Red Tory leader.

There will be mutiny in the ranks. We can count on the old Reformers to split the right again, leaving the way open for a Liberal or NDP government.

So do your part now. Join your local Conservative association and make sure they vote for Stronach.

Join the Conservatives today!

	22-01-2004 00:25									#109
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The more I hear about this chick, the more I like her.

She seems to have identical opinions to Joe Clark?

	22-01-2004 04:54									#110
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****************************************

Perform same-sex marriages or resign, B.C. tells commissioners
Last Updated Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:01:54
VANCOUVER - British Columbia has ordered the province's marriage commissioners to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies or resign.

Opponents of same-sex marriage are upset with the decision, saying the right of same-sex couples to marry has yet to be turned into a law.

The B.C. Vital Statistics Agency, which appoints the commissioners who perform civil marriage ceremonies, sent out a letter in January ordering those "who feel they cannot solemnize same-sex marriages" to "resign their appointments" effective March 31.

Commissioners received the letter Wednesday.

Some 300 marriage commissioners perform approximately 54 per cent of the roughly 22,000 marriages in B.C. every year, according to the agency's website.

B.C. Conservative MP Paul Forseth said the letter indicated the province had decided to "jump the gun and actively promote same-sex marriage as a matter of government operational policy."

He added that it was unfair to change a commissioner's employment conditions midway through his or her tenure.

Forseth suggested commissioners be organized into two groups, one that performs same-sex marriages and one that doesn't.

Advocates of same-sex marriage, however, were heartened by the news.

Tim Stevenson, a Vancouver city councillor and United Church minister, said the province is merely acknowledging the court's stance on the issue. He applauded the government for ensuring that commissioners could no more turn down a marriage based on gender than they could turn down a marriage based on skin colour.

In May, the B.C. Court of Appeal altered the definition of marriage to "the union of two persons." Two months later, the court lifted a moratorium on same-sex marriages.


****************************************

Well, looks like the gubmint ain't gonna wait too long to get the ball rolling, at least in B.C. Can't say I'm too bothered by it.


to this.

	22-01-2004 05:25									#111
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OK:

About representation of the West, I would contend the opposite, that Western Canada is underrepresented in parliament.

The 2001 figures:

Ontario 11,410,046 +6.1%
Quebec 7,237,470 +1.4%
British Columbia 3,907,738 +4.9%
Alberta 2,974,807 +10.3%
Manitoba 1,119,583 +0.5%
Saskatchewan 978,933 -1.1%
Nova Scotia 908,007 -0.1%
New Brunswick 729,498 -1.2%
Newfoundland 512,930 -7.0%
PEI 135,294 +0.5%

30,007,094 Total

all numbers from http://www.canadainfolink.ca/chartfoura.htm

Now, we would expect, in a parliament of 301 seats:

114 seats for Ontario
72 seats for Quebec
39 seats for BC
30 seats for Alberta
11 seats for Manitoba
10 seats for Saskatchewan
9 seats for Nova Scotia
7 seats for New Brunswick
5 seats for Newfoundland
2 seats (generous) to PEI.


Now, let's see the real proportions.

Prince Edward Island 4
Newfoundland 7
Nova Scotia 11
New Brunswick 10
Quebec 75
Ontario 103
Manitoba 14
Saskatchewan 14
Alberta 26
British Columbia 34

BC needs at least 6 seats, and Alberta needs 4, if we do not take any away from the declining provinces.

Ontario would need another 11 seats.

Manitoba and Saskatchewan are overrepresented, by 7 seats, while BC and Alberta are underrepresented by 10 seats.

This is a pretty significant redistribution, considering that the entire province of Nova Scotia has 11 seats.

I see what you say about Ontario, but just because Ontario is underrepresented, it does not necessarily mean that the West is overrepresented. Both BC and Ontario seem to be getting shafted by the present system.

	22-01-2004 05:31									#112
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Also you have to look at the proportion.

6 seats out of 34 is more than 17% underrepresentation in BC, and 15% underrepresentation in Alberta.

Ontario comes in at a little over 10% underrepresentation.

	22-01-2004 05:35									#113
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quote: Opponents of same-sex marriage are upset with the decision, saying the right of same-sex couples to marry has yet to be turned into a law. The B.C. Vital Statistics Agency, which appoints the commissioners who perform civil marriage ceremonies, sent out a letter in January ordering those "who feel they cannot solemnize same-sex marriages" to "resign their appointments" effective March 31.

Why? If this has not been affirmed by parliament, than the Vital Statistics Agency is jumping the gun.

The vital statistics agency reports to Parliament, and not to the judiciary.

	22-01-2004 05:37									#114
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quote: So do your part now. Join your local Conservative association and make sure they vote for Stronach. Join the Conservatives today!

Go right ahead. Then stay in the party and vote for the Tory winner in the election regardless of the leader.

If you just vote for Stronach, and leave if she loses, than go away. We don't want you.

	22-01-2004 05:40									#115
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Ben:

You're right: Western Canada is getting a little shafted by the current system - but look at the numbers.

If you consider only BC and Alberta they comprise 22.9% of population and have 20.1% of seats. Rather minor for the sake of actual decision making process. If you count, though, the overrepresented Manitoba and Saskatchewan (which, I gather, are much closer in terms of social values to the west rather than east), then you get a total of 29.9% of population and 29.5% of seats. That's just about as equal as an electoral system can get.

	22-01-2004 05:57									#116
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We can't redistribute seats away from a province, or otherwise the Maritimes would lose most of their representation.

Just because a system is good, does not mean that it cannot be improved.

	22-01-2004 06:04									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi We can't redistribute seats away from a province, or otherwise the Maritimes would lose most of their representation. Just because a system is good, does not mean that it cannot be improved.

Improvement is great, but do you really think these 2.8% that BC and Alberta are being cheated out have an impact on national decisions? Especially given that Ontario would actually gain more seats than BC and Alberta combined? Do you really think the politics of the government would be different

	22-01-2004 06:09									#118
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as far as Tories go, Ann Widicome is the sexiest, and should lad all torie parties all over the commonwealth!

	22-01-2004 07:03									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Go right ahead. Then stay in the party and vote for the Tory winner in the election regardless of the leader. If you just vote for Stronach, and leave if she loses, than go away. We don't want you.

If you just join the Progressive Conservatives to vote for the merger, and leave if it doesn't go through, go away. The PCs don't want you.

	22-01-2004 07:16									#120
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quote: Especially given that Ontario would actually gain more seats than BC and Alberta combined? Do you really think the politics of the government would be different

That's a poor reason to oppose representation. It's more about fairness.

quote: If you just join the Progressive Conservatives to vote for the merger, and leave if it doesn't go through, go away. The PCs don't want you.

Agreed.

Find a quote where I have supported people joining the Progressive Conservative Party.