22-01-2004 00:18									#31
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In other news, Haiti became a dictatorship again, and the Haitian standard of living is considerably worse than that of Cuba.

If Cuba were allowed to slowly adopt capitalism, using its commie strengths (education+healthcare), it would probably be quite successful. Too bad America is still going on about the nationalised stuff, and probably wouldn't let them emerge at a sensible pace.

	22-01-2004 00:24									#32
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Sava, then, I assume that you are viscerally opposed to state ownership of the means of production and single party control of the state -- at least because your family is a direct victim of just such a totalitarian state.

	22-01-2004 00:24									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sava It's philosophies like that that make Communism a fool's errand. Human beings have developed concepts of ownership. Any cultural or political system must be compatible with basic human concepts. Communism isn't.

No one wants your toothbrush to be community property. There's no point to it. But the private ownership of capital is no more a BASIC human concept than is slavery though.

	22-01-2004 00:25									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Sava, then, I assume that you are viscerally opposed to state ownership of the means of production and single party control of the state -- at least because your family is a direct victim of just such a totalitarian state.

absolutely

edit: but that doesn't necessarily mean I oppose to the government providing for the public welfare (as the pre-amble of the Constitution states this is one of the US government's purposes).

	22-01-2004 00:26									#35
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Sava, see. Read Kid's post. He equates state ownership of the means of production with Marxism.

	22-01-2004 00:28									#36
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Single party dictatorship was a distortion of Marxism and socialism brought about by Stalinism.

	22-01-2004 00:29									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Sava, see. Read Kid's post. He equates state ownership of the means of production with Marxism.

The state only owns the MoP if it doesn't represent the people. Otherwise the community owns it.

	22-01-2004 00:31									#38
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Che is right.

But I would go further than Che: single-party dictatorship came from the inability of revolutionary groups to peacefully turn into democratic rulers once the authoritarianism stopped being useful (i.e. once the revolutionary civil war ended).

This is actually the main reason why I don't believe in revolutions as an efficient transition.

	22-01-2004 00:33									#39
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It's not the revolution that's the problem. It's the attempted coutner-revolution that mucks everything up.

	22-01-2004 00:35									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But the private ownership of capital is no more a BASIC human concept than is slavery though.

You see, this is where Commies get it wrong. You can't compare the evils of slavery with someone retaining ownership of capital that they created, earned, or worked for.

What I have a problem with is institutionalized systems that generate wealth for people at the top. I think any system or government institution should benefit the least fortunate and most needy. The strong should protect the weak; and a free society should be institutionally compassionate...

An economic system should be fair. Those with wealth have an inherent advantage in creating more wealth. Progressive taxation is not only fair, it is practical. And in terms of maintaining healthy capitalist markets, you need a strong consumer base to support business. If the state keeps people healthy, education, and working; they can earn money and spend it, fueling the economy. This is where supply side economics fails. It is as flawed an ideology as communism.

	22-01-2004 00:35									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Single party dictatorship was a distortion of Marxism and socialism brought about by Stalinism.

I'd place the blame on Lenin but that's just me. Then again I wouldn't bother to post half the crap in this thread used to defend Castro and his actions.

	22-01-2004 00:36									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Sava, see. Read Kid's post. He equates state ownership of the means of production with Marxism.

that's not what kid said...

	22-01-2004 00:40									#43
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Castro is a ****ing ******* dictator. Worse than some but not as bad as others. You don't have to like Bush or hate Bush to determine that. Of course some here would like you to believe that it's not really Castro's fault. It's all the evil people that try couteract the revolution.

	22-01-2004 00:41									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Che is right. But I would go further than Che: single-party dictatorship came from the inability of revolutionary groups to peacefully turn into democratic rulers once the authoritarianism stopped being useful (i.e. once the revolutionary civil war ended). This is actually the main reason why I don't believe in revolutions as an efficient transition.

The problem is that the revolution needs to be a world revolution. A significant number of nations need to revolt during the same time frame. That way authoritarian rulers can not justify their rule by national security.

	22-01-2004 00:43									#45
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quote: Castro is a ****ing ******* dictator. Worse than some but not as bad as others. You don't have to like Bush or hate Bush to determine that.

absolutely... my point is that if you are going to hate dictators and oppressive regimes, you should hate them all. If not, yer a hypocrit.

	22-01-2004 00:44									#46
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Why does everyone get a hard on for revolutions?

	22-01-2004 00:47									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sava absolutely... my point is that if you are going to hate dictators and oppressive regimes, you should hate them all. If not, yer a hypocrit.

I'm a lover these days Sava. But I can still call someone an ******* and all dictators are *******s. For the most part I think we can agree on who is a dictator and who is not, with perhaps an exception or two.

	22-01-2004 00:51									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sava You see, this is where Commies get it wrong. You can't compare the evils of slavery with someone retaining ownership of capital that they created, earned, or worked for.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with keeping what you work for. But when you use it to own capital, that's exploitation. It doesn't matter how much capital you own. It's still exploitation.

quote: Originally posted by Sava What I have a problem with is institutionalized systems that generate wealth for people at the top. I think any system or government institution should benefit the least fortunate and most needy. The strong should protect the weak; and a free society should be institutionally compassionate... An economic system should be fair. Those with wealth have an inherent advantage in creating more wealth. Progressive taxation is not only fair, it is practical. And in terms of maintaining healthy capitalist markets, you need a strong consumer base to support business. If the state keeps people healthy, education, and working; they can earn money and spend it, fueling the economy. This is where supply side economics fails. It is as flawed an ideology as communism.

I respect that. The problem that I see is that plenty of people have a vested interest in a system that rewards property owners at the expense of the masses. Owning capital must be illegal.

	22-01-2004 00:55									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I raise this question because all prior examples of "communism" appear to rely on censorship and control of the media. All. Not some. All. This is not an aberation. This has to be inherent in communism. And the reason it is inherent is obvious.

It has more to do with the fact that the original communist state quickly became a dictatorship, and had no small hand in developing other movements around the world. All were tainted by the Stalinist regime of the USSR.

Did the original democracy in Greece grant freedoms to everyone? No, only Athenian male citizens. Did we abandon democracy? No.

Were the mercantile economies democratic? No, they were monarchist. But we kept and developed the capitalist system.

The ideological foundation is there. We just need a working example; unlikely as any that does look to succeed will quickly be attacked by capitalist nations.

	22-01-2004 00:58									#50
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Communism= a impossible wonderful fantasy used by evil con men to whip the masses into a frenzy to ferment revoloution promising a workers paradise, but resulting in a brutal authoritative dictatorship that will never "whither away" but must be blown away.

	22-01-2004 00:59									#51
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quote: For the most part I think we can agree on who is a dictator and who is not, with perhaps an exception or two.

absolutely... only I think some of your assumptions about "who" I might consider to be a dictator would be in error.

Kid: Capital is simply the relative value of anything... if I build a clay pot, and sell it, the money I have (capital) is the reflection of my labor. The basic premise of your ideology is flawed. Denying people the right to keep the capital gained from the fruits of labor is more immoral and unjust than the exploitation that large amounts of capital allow.

The latter can be counteracted with tax policy. Frankly, the estate tax needs to be brought back. Also, government can have tax policies that make it easier to acquire and build wealth by being progressive.

There is no perfect system Kid, we should instead seek to sculpt one that can be as fair as possible. And solve each problem, or cross each bridge as we get to it.

	22-01-2004 01:00									#52
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quote: Communism= a impossible wonderful fantasy used by evil con men to whip the masses into a frenzy to ferment revoloution promising a workers paradise, but resulting in a brutal authoritative dictatorship that will never "whither away" but must be blown away.

I couldn't have summed it up better.

	22-01-2004 01:08									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sava absolutely... only I think some of your assumptions about "who" I might consider to be a dictator would be in error.

Perhaps so. That's why a drill sergent of mine once told me that assumptions are the mother of all **** ups.

	22-01-2004 01:13									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Kid: Capital is simply the relative value of anything... if I build a clay pot, and sell it, the money I have (capital) is the reflection of my labor. The basic premise of your ideology is flawed. Denying people the right to keep the capital gained from the fruits of labor is more immoral and unjust than the exploitation that large amounts of capital allow.

The fact is that most people are not self-employed. Capitalism is dependent on exploitation. It is dependent on class conflict.

You know I wasn't talking about self-employment. What I was talking about was using your resources to profit from someone elses work.

	22-01-2004 01:16									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The fact is that most people are not self-employed. Capitalism is dependent on exploitation. It is dependent on class conflict. You know I wasn't talking about self-employment. What I was talking about was using your resources to profit from someone elses work.

In order to counter-act this, government tax policy must reward independent business and entepreneurialship. Corporations have contributed some good things to society. But they are wayyyyyy too powerful without accountability.

In a Sava society, tax policy would be progressive, and there would be a strong emphasis on small business.

Denying people the right to possess capital comes in conflict with the ideals of freedom and democracy. We should work within these basic ideals to formulate a system that is compatible with these ideals while also being fair.

	22-01-2004 01:17									#56
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Kid, and to be fair to the idea of free markets and capitalism, your complaints seem to be with "corporatism"... just like I scold the anti-commies for blurring Stalinism with Communism, I'm going to have to spank you if you lump in capitalism for the abuses of corporatism.

	22-01-2004 01:21									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sava In order to counter-act this, government tax policy must reward independent business and entepreneurialship. Corporations have contributed some good things to society. But they are wayyyyyy too powerful without accountability. In a Sava society, tax policy would be progressive, and there would be a strong emphasis on small business. Denying people the right to possess capital comes in conflict with the ideals of freedom and democracy. We should work within these basic ideals to formulate a system that is compatible with these ideals while also being fair.

Greed is the foundation of capitalism. It's greed that provides the incentive that drives capitalism. It doesn't work without it.

	22-01-2004 01:25									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Kid, and to be fair to the idea of free markets and capitalism, your complaints seem to be with "corporatism"... just like I scold the anti-commies for blurring Stalinism with Communism, I'm going to have to spank you if you lump in capitalism for the abuses of corporatism.

Capitalism is a system that grants property owners priviledge. I'm assuming you define corporatism as a system that grants priviledge to corporations. I see little difference.

	22-01-2004 01:30									#59
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Woohoo! It's Capitalism vs. Communism again!

Sava vs. Kid?

Reading may be hazardous to your brain.

-Arrian

	22-01-2004 01:52									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Greed is the foundation of capitalism. It's greed that provides the incentive that drives capitalism. It doesn't work without it.

So? Do you plan to eliminate greed? A worldwide WAR ON GREED? Design me a system that works... until then....

zzzzZZZZZzzzzZZZZzzzz

the best we can do is work with what we've got and try to make things as fair as possible... there will always be have's and have not's... your little fantasy world will never exist kid. Deal with it. Then when you get some sense, we can talk.