24-01-2004 21:57									#31
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Seeing that mongoose has already said it was OK for GCA to transport their civ, I have no problem to doing the same with some catapults. Some of us may consider it an exploit, me included, but in THIS demogame at least, it is a legal move/action. So we should go ahead and do it if we feel it is in our best interest. Anyways, it would be a bit hard to CGA/GWT to complain if the even found out.

	24-01-2004 23:29									#32
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I'm sorry but trading catapults and transporting a civ are NOT the same thing. Transporting a civ merely involves gifting one or more cities to another, it does not involve exploiting the state of war/peace. Furthermore, you should not be able to justify using a certain exploit on the grounds that it is "similar" to another. Unless the exploit is EXACTLY like one which has already been done and condoned by mongoose, all others are subject to debate.

And to be honest, I do not see how this should be permitted at all.

	24-01-2004 23:37									#33
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I'm sorry you don't quite understand it.

	25-01-2004 00:07									#34
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GCA teleported their entire army to the other continent and that was ruled OK. There were hardly any complaints about it.

I know some of you may not like it, but for this game it's legal and I see no problem with us doing it to. Not because we're being spiteful, but because it's a very clever use of the game system and it could be extremely useful to our allies.

--Togas

	25-01-2004 00:52									#35
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So, in out rexing effort, what city will be gift to CGN and allow them to ruch build a warrior and use to transport our cats to their shores? If we are going to do it, we need to do it soon

E_T

	25-01-2004 01:02									#36
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Look at the bright side, if GCA joins the war, they'll have to declare war on CGN... *cough* *WW* *cough*

	25-01-2004 01:11									#37
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I'm sorry you don't quite understand it.

I'm sorry you don't get that it isn't the same thing: to pull off GCA's stunt, no use of exploiting the war/peace process was used. Merely city gifting. To do what you suggest not only would we have to do what GCA did but ALSO start a temporary fake war with CGN so that they could capture our units and teleport them back.

So gimme a break, it's not comparable.

	25-01-2004 01:32									#38
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I actually have no problem with declaring war in order to trade catapults, as long as it isn't used to fire them twice. My problem is with the teleportation trick.

That said, Togas does have a point. GCA has already exploited this to transport their army across the ocean.

	25-01-2004 01:43									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I actually have no problem with declaring war in order to trade catapults, as long as it isn't used to fire them twice. My problem is with the teleportation trick.

I would agree with this. I don't care about moving them around, what I don't like is to see the same cat used 2x in the same turn. I guess what I mean is I don't mind the exploits that indirectly affect a war, such as transferring ownership of cats and moving them around, but exploits that have direct repercussions, such as multiple attacks, I have a problem with.

	25-01-2004 02:02									#40
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let's do it them, we build cows next turn, so let's gift it to GCA that turn. Then we move our surpluss cats to it and they 1 turn rush build a warrior, attack the cats, move them into the city and gift the city back to us. If we are magnanmouse, we can let them keep it for 1 more turn to move that one warrior back into it and they gift it back to us and we go on from there.

E_T

	25-01-2004 02:59									#41
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quote: Originally posted by E_T let's do it them, we build cows next turn, so let's gift it to GCA that turn. Then we move our surpluss cats to it and they 1 turn rush build a warrior, attack the cats, move them into the city and gift the city back to us. If we are magnanmouse, we can let them keep it for 1 more turn to move that one warrior back into it and they gift it back to us and we go on from there. E_T

That's a good idea too!

But, we really should gift it to CGN. Also, we need to speak with them about this first.

They could also rush buy a Horsemen so that they don't have to hold the city for more than one turn. The Horse just goes inot the city with the Cats. I just said Warrior cause its cheaper to buy. Plus, we can't really gift them that city 'next' turn because we have to gather the Cats and get them in place for the transfer.


MZ: Don't tell me that you NEVER declared war on a Civ in order to cancel a per turn deal or otherwise allow for a transfer of resources. The game is faulty in that you can't do certain things without going to extremes. People have found ways around the games shortcomings. Some things are acceptable and some things are not.

Let's say I had deal with a certain Civ that said I would embargo another Civ if they should declare war on the first Civ. Nothing says I have to go to war with them; only embargo. And lets say that I had an agreemnt with this attacking Civ that said we had a NAP. But, if I had, within 20 turns, set up a deal for an exchange or sale of resouces/luxes then I would have to declare war in order to cancel the deal. So, in order to make things right for both parties I would have to have a temp war with the Civ in order to break the deal and honor my contract with the other. I guess you ould say that we should only makes deals with other Civs that cn be accomoplished in game through the use of legitimate game mechanics. But, that would leavfe out things like the sort of alliance we hav with CGN and CFC. It's not 'official' in-game. It's just an agreement we have outside of the games mechanics. We have bypassed the games mechanics in order to free ourselves up of such an in-game mechanic/agreement. Is it right for us to do that? We are doing something the game was not designed for.

A poll on the issue will be posted by tommorow.

	25-01-2004 03:10									#42
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Well, I wouldn't give them all of our Cats, but keep 3 in the north and 3 in the south. So that would leave 7 to "gift" them. And they are all in the south right now, right next to PoV, so it won't take very long at all to get them into place.

E_T

	25-01-2004 03:12									#43
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree MZ: Don't tell me that you NEVER declared war on a Civ in order to cancel a per turn deal or otherwise allow for a transfer of resources. The game is faulty in that you can't do certain things without going to extremes. People have found ways around the games shortcomings. Some things are acceptable and some things are not.

Oh you bet I've done it more than once, but again, that is not the same situation. To cancel a deal all you have to do is declare war and then send peace, no "fake" combat goes on, no units change hands, etc. which is what we are suggesting to do in the catapult trade. Plus, like you say, some things are acceptable and some things are not. Who is the judge to say what is and what isn't? What is an exploit to us might not seem that way to GWT or GCA and whenever you do something not in the spirit of what the game designers intended, you are walking on a very thin line as to defending the legitimacy of those actions.

Furthermore there is a big difference in what we do in a normal play-for-fun PBEM or MP game and what we do in the mother of demo games and I am afraid that repeating and adding new exploits might carry on a snowball effect in which team will try and up the ante with the excuse that other teams already did something similar. God knows what GCA and GWT will think of next after they figure out the stunt we're trying to pull.

I totally respect the viewpoints of those who are in favor of this little maneouver but I have to say that there is absolutely no way I can consider myself in favor of doing this despite wanting to help CGN in any way possible.

	25-01-2004 03:35									#44
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Didn't GoW and ND transfer Cats once?

	25-01-2004 04:49									#45
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Why don't we just ask Mongoose for a ruling on the issue and see what he thinks given his... rather interesting... decision regarding the GCA army/navy teleport?

	25-01-2004 05:54									#46
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I say just go with it, whats the point of babbling on about 'its an exploit' if the other teams have done other stuff we would call an exploit too??

	25-01-2004 06:20									#47
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What the hell is the point of plaing honorably if were trying to win this. Is there a rule agst fake war/peace that moongoose made?

Play as dirty as you can without breaking the rules already agreed to. We're already getting raped with loop holes and exploitation of stupid rules.... Dont waste opportunity like these for trivial things like honor!

Besides there no way we will be villified when we do this. AFAIK, we're not breaking anything and GCA is in no position to criticize us anyway.

	25-01-2004 06:24									#48
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While I think we should do this, I think we should wait:


1. We shouldn't give GCA any excuse for keeping up their fake war, ie. maintain clean hands, exploit wise, until the peace is brokered. I know they aren't even remotely the same issue, but I think its dangerous to begin "working the system" when we hope to have an exploit against us resolved.

2. While I know war will soon come to the other continent, hopefully it will still be turns away. Surely they will wait until leo's is built, to upgrade, otherwise that mass horse buildup will be too costly. Yet, I realize that it will take several turns to do this and to get them to a useful position.

3. If CGA thinks war won't occur for ten turns at least, then they might not agree to an extra 10 gpt upkeep for that length of time.

	25-01-2004 07:51									#49
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It might be possibble to do this(if we do it at all) without GCA/GWT being any the wiser. Does CGN have a warrior on that galley, if so we

1. Move catapults
2. Giftcity
3. CGN accepts city so now all see it changed
4. CGN move galley/warrior in
5. take catapults into city
6. CGN gifts us city
7. we accept
8. We make darn sure CGN protects our catapults well

Since our turns follow each other nobody has to know.

I admit I have some questions about the ethics of this, but it was done in the PTWDG and really that game has been tame exploit wise relative to this one.

Aggie

	25-01-2004 07:53									#50
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1. How can this be an excuse for anything on their part? This has nothing to do with being at war with them or not. This has nothing to do with WW. I don't understand why you are connecting the issues.

2. GTW has already upgraded it's Horses. CGN reported going 'weak' to GWT just a turn ago. CGN has been producing units for War non-stop for a while now. If GWT passed them this quickly; plus the fact that CGN has evidence that WW is hitting GWT pretty hard now. Why would GTW want to put action off for long? They must know that CGN will beeline for GP. It just makes sense to me that GWT is not stalling for Leo's and will attack very soon. Perhaps even with Naval invasion.

3. CGN will have to be contacted about this before we can come to any conclusions about what they will agree to or not. We defeinately don't make the offer out to sound as if we are out to save gpt. We make it sound like we want to help them out as much as we can.

	25-01-2004 07:59									#51
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree 1. How can this be an excuse for anything on their part? This has nothing to do with being at war with them or not. This has nothing to do with WW. I don't understand why you are connecting the issues.

Because Lucky probably will.

Think about the big picture. We can't have anything derail peace with GCA, we can't be haunted by ww the rest of the game. Now is not the time to start using exploits. Once we have peace, then we should proceed as we wish. Until then, anything questionable done by us will be weighted against the continuing war issue.

Why give Lucky one more thing to say?

	25-01-2004 08:09									#52
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Well, for one, I don't think mongoose will connect the issues even if Lucky wants him too. mongoose has the balls to interceed in this game if it needs to be done. mongoose is as tired of Lucky's BS as we are. Perhaps we might ask mongoose about this ahea of time just to ward off any possible repercusions, real or not.

	25-01-2004 08:13									#53
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Well, for one, I don't think mongoose will connect the issues even if Lucky wants him too. mongoose has the balls to interceed in this game if it needs to be done. mongoose is as tired of Lucky's BS as we are. Perhaps we might ask mongoose about this ahea of time just to ward off any possible repercusions, real or not.

that would be prudent. And even though I agree with you regarding mongoose,Lucky's shenanigans have gone on for quite some time, even after mongoose was fed up. This stuff went down many turns ago,yet we are still at war? Lucky seems to be good at filibustering.

	25-01-2004 08:31									#54
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Perhaps this discussion can be taken to another/new thread.

	25-01-2004 15:13									#55
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not totally on topic, but I'd like to point out a difference in exploit level when transferring cats.

AFAIK, the PTWDG saw 2 different cat transferrals:
- GS gave RP some cats, by giving RP a city, let a galley disembark a horse, take the cats, move everything in, and give the city back to GS. Those cats where ready to move again at the beginning of RP's next turn, and as they were standing ready next to the city did never gain extra movement, also not during the transfer.

- ND and GoW swapped cats (those same cats, even ), but they did it immediately after capturing them, moving them out of the way. Doing so, those cats gained an extra movement. If you would alternate war, you could control cats with 2 teams, giving them 2 movements each turn, instead of the one. They could fire each turn twice, if you would leave them unptrotected afterwards.

While arguably the first option is an exploit of sorts, the second option is more exploitative. Giving cities and declaring war to give cats to decrease upkeep is one thing, but we should IMHO make sure those cats do not gain extra movement while doing so.

DeepO

	26-01-2004 17:13									#56
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And if they have rushed a warrior to take the Cat's and we could kill that warrior with a NM, would that be as bad as...
transport a hole CIV to another continent, and force another CIV with eternal WW?

	26-01-2004 21:47									#57
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The cat transfer thing is definitely a gray area.

Back to the original question, though, here are my thoughts:

Get rid of the warriors and 5-10 catapults (get rid off can mean disbanding or tranferring, in the case of the cats). Leave all barracks. That's a relatively minor cutback. I agree with those who think scrapping a large chunk of our military power is a bad idea. CFC may be our best buddies right now, but if they saw an opening, they would HAVE to at least consider going for it.

-Arrian

	26-01-2004 23:26									#58
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I'd go for the scapping the warriors and transferring the cats.

Aggie