24-01-2004 00:14									#31
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

spiff, ned, et al

There is no standard "Jewish" line on the events of the life of Jesus, at least as far as i know. Many Talmud rabbis refer to him as a sorcerer - apparently trying to reconcile NT miracle stories with the denial that Jesus was Messiah - but those are not legal opinions and have no official force on Jews of that or any later times.

Of coruse Jews do not accept NT as scripture, and so the are in the same position of looking for the "historical Jesus" as any secularist, or any Christian who does not privelege the NT as a historical source.

I would note that there a currently fashionable theory of Jewish history of that period indicates that the Pharisees were NOT the dominant Jewish group of the time, the Sadducees were. This runs counter to both the NT and Josephus (most important Jewish historian writing in the 1st C CE, but an interested party and sometimes unreliable source) . Also Pharisees are not "hypocrites" in the Jewish sources.

Some question about whether Christianity would really have been seen as a major threat at the time. Difficult to ascertain without alternate sources to NT.

There was a theory about the historic Jesus a few years ago seeing Jesus as a political leader of the Jews, which would account for Romans crucifying him. Closer to then current Jewish messianic notions as well. Not sure of current academic status of this theory - certainly many jews still beleive it, i think.

Basically we DONT know what actually happened since there are no good alternate sources to NT, and parsing out historically reliable from the NT is not easy. There are clearly VERY STRONG motives the early christians would have had to blame Jews and thereby absolve the Roman state. I suppose this fact is one Jews tend to reflect on more than secular gentiles do.

However what is of greater concern is the historical resonance of the "upon us and upon our children" line in the history of Jewish-Christian relations, and its relation to antisemitic violence.

I dont know how the film really plays things. Until its more widely released that wont be clear, and reserving comment seems wise.

	24-01-2004 00:18									#32
	Increase the size of your Attachments

ok all religion aside......if thats possible.

its a movie about a book
a movie made to follow the books story line.
shall we censor everything so no ones offended?


don't go watch it... jezzz...


some of the same stupid logic went around
about Pearl Harbor.

its a MOVIE for goodness sake
its entertainment...maybe thought provoking
but still its entertainment

	24-01-2004 00:19									#33
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't have a lot of faith in the ADL after the got caught spying on progressive groups in Califiornia.

they monitor groups where they think there may be antisemitism, or hatred being fomented. Across the spectrum. Quite alot of rightwingers dislike them for the same reason, IIUC.

	24-01-2004 00:21									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by boann ok all religion aside......if thats possible. its a movie about a book a movie made to follow the books story line. shall we censor everything so no ones offended?

I dont care if somethings put out that offends me. happens all the time. Given the history of that particular book with respect to violence against my people, I will watch carefully what happens when it is released.

And who exactly is calling for censorship?

	24-01-2004 00:24									#35
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Or if we never mentioned the Inquisition to not remind Christians of their dirty work?

is there a jewish relgious text that quotes Germans or Spaniards saying "may their blood be upon us and upon our children" is there a tradition of inflammatory sermons based on such a text, followed by the murder of Germans and Spaniards?

	24-01-2004 00:27									#36
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

LoTM: my conclusion is that everyone is evil

	24-01-2004 00:28									#37
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by GePap Oh, come on..first of all, what other "Gibson" is there, unless you are from Australia, but then why would I be talking about it? I like mytery in my threads. Saying "Fundamentalist Catholic Australian Actor Mel Gibson's new movie about the last few days of Christ's life called the Passion is being labelled by prominent Jewish Leaders in the US as anti-semitic, what do you think?" just does not work.

the problem of course is that there are many people who it would be absurd to call Nazis, who are antisemites. And it is a widespread current meme that whenever someone criticizes the Jews, those mean Jews call them "nazis". Further it is possible for a non antisemitic person to nonetheless create an antisemitic work - evidence that Mel Gibson is a nice guy with lots of Jewish friends would not in principle exonerate the work.

None of which is to say the film is antisemitic. But it might be.

	24-01-2004 00:36									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The Jews wanted Jesus dead because they claimed he was blasphemous. The Rabbis took great offense of his claims that he was the son of God. The Romans, specifically Pontius Pilate, heeded the Jewish calls for Crucifiction and enforced the decision.

Now do I hate Jews because of this? No, I think it's silly to hate them for Jesus' death. Jesus himself said as he was dying on the cross, "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do."

	24-01-2004 00:40									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Shees: the title is made to be controversial and get people to look at the thread. The only one who got it was cali, it seems. Shees again.

	24-01-2004 00:43									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by GePap Shees: the title is made to be controversial and get people to look at the thread. The only one who got it was cali, it seems. Shees again.

Gepap - i thought you were an atheist. Why is this a topic of any particular interest to you?

	24-01-2004 00:47									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Gepap - i thought you were an atheist. Why is this a topic of any particular interest to you?

What does being aethist have to do with this?

One does not have to believe in the monotheistic God to care about interfaith issues.

	24-01-2004 00:59									#42
	Tired of ads?

With regard to the topic, no, I don't think Gibson is a nazi. I find the suggestion that he might be a bit silly to be honest.

	24-01-2004 01:01									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I haven't seen the movie, but I'd hazard a guess that certain people are being over-sensitive. The fact is that jewish leaders were responsible for Jesus' crucifixion.

	24-01-2004 01:04									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia With regard to the topic, no, I don't think Gibson is a nazi. I find the suggestion that he might be a bit silly to be honest.

The only one who suggested that Gibson is a Nazi is Gepap, and then, only to try to spark controversy and interest in this thread.

So yes, it is a bit silly.

	24-01-2004 01:07									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'd just like to point out Mel Gibson's history of making extremely anti-English films in which the English are portrayed as fascists, sexual perverts, and evil sadists.

There were no mass complaints about this, although three of his films are notoriously anti-English: Braveheart, The Patriot and Gallipoli.

It's well known Mel doesn't like the Poms.

PS. He also isn't fond of gays.

	24-01-2004 01:09									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Edan The only one who suggested that Gibson is a Nazi is Gepap, and then, only to try to spark controversy and interest in this thread. So yes, it is a bit silly.

Notice how the very first thing I write in the FIRST POST is "No, he is not, but.."

Reading is a wonderful skill, one of the Three R's, as it were.

As Cali suggested, the word "nazi" is in the title to titilate.

	24-01-2004 01:12									#47
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes, the movie is based on the New Testament, there's no debate about that; it's not the New Testament that is anti-Semitic.

However, from what I read, it seems as if the Jewish characters--apart from Josh & his buds--are depicted in all the grand old Jewish stereotypes; i.e. beady eyes, hooked noses, greedy, etc. That is where the problem will lie, IF that is indeed the case.

	24-01-2004 01:13									#48
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

One important thing to consider when one is trying to figure out if it was jews that called for the excecution of Jesus depends on the understanding of the word Messiah, or Kristos in greece. Today we think of it as a word to describe the son of god in the christian religion. Back then it probably had its original meaning, that mean that anyone called Messiah was or claimed to be king of the jews of David's house. In this case, the romans had plenty of good and sound reasons to kill him. If he only had religious goals, he might not have been much of a trouble for the romans directly.

When you're trying to sell the message of christianity to roman citizens it might not be a good idea to say that the son of god has been murdered by the roman govt. It would lead to all kinds of trouble.

	24-01-2004 01:14									#49
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

And these wild and unfounded accusations of anti-semitism at anyone who criticises Israel or the Jewish religion or particular Jewish people are really beginning to get up my nose.

I'm a person who has in the past publicly stuck up for the NZ Jewish community against real anti-semites (and I probably did myself out of a prospective job by doing so), but this sort of behaviour threatens to devalue such actions.

Judaism, the Jewish people and Israel are not special. They are no more immune to criticism than any other relgion, race or country and they have no right to special consideration from anyone nor a right to accuse every critic of being a racist.

	24-01-2004 01:20									#50
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by GePap Notice how the very first thing I write in the FIRST POST is "No, he is not, but.."

And notice I said you did it to spark interest in this thread. Maybe I should have added "but he renounced it right afterwards", but you certainly intended to spark intrest and controversy with the title. You don't try to suggest someone is a nazi and then promptly refute it ig you don't intend to spark interest and controversy.

	24-01-2004 01:26									#51
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Agathon And these wild and unfounded accusations of anti-semitism at anyone who criticises Israel or the Jewish religion or particular Jewish people are really beginning to get up my nose. I'm a person who has in the past publicly stuck up for the NZ Jewish community against real anti-semites (and I probably did myself out of a prospective job by doing so), but this sort of behaviour threatens to devalue such actions. Judaism, the Jewish people and Israel are not special. They are no more immune to criticism than any other relgion, race or country and they have no right to special consideration from anyone nor a right to accuse every critic of being a racist.

(gets up out of seat) Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! (sits back down again)

This trend can be very counterproductive. In a desperate attempt to stamp out anti-semitism they risk driving many towards antisemitism. Hatred is not a family value. Teach that instead. It's much more effective.

	24-01-2004 01:28									#52
	Get a bigger avatar today!

jesus was a jew. And I hate J.A.Ps

Thats my contribution to the thread.

	24-01-2004 01:28									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon And these wild and unfounded accusations of anti-semitism at anyone who criticises Israel or the Jewish religion or particular Jewish people are really beginning to get up my nose. I'm a person who has in the past publicly stuck up for the NZ Jewish community against real anti-semites (and I probably did myself out of a prospective job by doing so), but this sort of behaviour threatens to devalue such actions. Judaism, the Jewish people and Israel are not special. They are no more immune to criticism than any other relgion, race or country and they have no right to special consideration from anyone nor a right to accuse every critic of being a racist.

and who accused Mel Gibson of being a racist? Some individuals did raise concerns about the film (based on a controversial script IIRC), which may be valid - unless youve seen the film, you really dont know.

This is exactly why i was concerned about this thread, and its heading. The implication is once again, "OH Boy, there go those Jews, accusing everyone of antisemitism "


I would suggest criticism of members of a group as group memebrs IS ipso facto bigoted - whether the group is Jews, blacks, Maoris, Christians, whites, gays straights, Arabs, muslims, etc.

Criticism of a religion would be something different, but i find that such criticism coming from people who know very little about the religion, is usually stupid, and quite often comes out of an agenda of bigotry - I see plenty of that in America, where a lot of ignoramuses claim to understand the essential nature of Islam.

Criticism of states is of course proper, whether that state be Israel, South Africa, Saudi Arabia, France, the US. It is not impossible that some or many of those making certain criticsisms of Israel are in fact motivated by anti-semitism, just as some unfair criticisms of black african states are motivated by anti-black racism. Any claim that someone is bigoted should be open to contest, of course, but it should not become unacceptable to call someone a bigot.

	24-01-2004 01:29									#54
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Cookie Monster (gets up out of seat) Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! (sits back down again) This trend can be very counterproductive. In a desperate attempt to stamp out anti-semitism they risk driving many towards antisemitism. Hatred is not a family value. Teach that instead. It's much more effective.

actually the ADL vigourously opposes ALL forms of bigotry. You might want to learn more about them.

	24-01-2004 01:29									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Cookie Monster This trend can be very counterproductive. In a desperate attempt to stamp out anti-semitism they risk driving many towards antisemitism.

This is exactly what worries me. Although I think the anti-semitism it will drive people to is not the "Jews are evil moneygrubber" but "Jews are consumed with their own sense of righteousness and think they are better than everyone else".

+ I think the latter is far more dangerous in the long term.

	24-01-2004 01:31									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I'd just like to point out Mel Gibson's history of making extremely anti-English films in which the English are portrayed as fascists, sexual perverts, and evil sadists. There were no mass complaints about this, although three of his films are notoriously anti-English: Braveheart, The Patriot and Gallipoli. It's well known Mel doesn't like the Poms. PS. He also isn't fond of gays.

actually i remember some english getting quite upset about "the patriot"

Ive never seen any of those 3 films btw.

	24-01-2004 01:33									#57
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I haven't seen the movie, but I'd hazard a guess that certain people are being over-sensitive. The fact is that jewish leaders were responsible for Jesus' crucifixion.

i havent seen the movie either, which is why i am withholding judgement.

By the way, one might keep in mind that the FACT you and others keep quoting is know only from the NT. One might as well site as fact that the world was destroyed in a flood in the time of Noah (yes, i know the NT has some value as a source for that period, but the above statement is NOT a fact, from the point of view of secular historians)

	24-01-2004 01:35									#58
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark and who accused Mel Gibson of being a racist? Some individuals did raise concerns about the film (based on a controversial script IIRC), which may be valid - unless youve seen the film, you really dont know.

On CNN someone accused the film of being intentionally anti-semitic. Isn't that enough?

quote: This is exactly why i was concerned about this thread, and its heading. The implication is once again, "OH Boy, there go those Jews, accusing everyone of antisemitism "

Of course it will because that is increasingly becoming the reality. Frivolous accusations of anti-Semitism threaten to obscure and trivialize the real thing.

quote: I would suggest criticism of members of a group as group memebrs IS ipso facto bigoted - whether the group is Jews, blacks, Maoris, Christians, whites, gays straights, Arabs, muslims, etc.

But that's not what most people do when they criticise Israel, yet people like Lawrence Summers want to call this antisemitism.

quote: Criticism of a religion would be something different, but i find that such criticism coming from people who know very little about the religion, is usually stupid, and quite often comes out of an agenda of bigotry - I see plenty of that in America, where a lot of ignoramuses claim to understand the essential nature of Islam.

That's true, but it doesn't mean that it is wrong to criticize a religion.

quote: Criticism of states is of course proper, whether that state be Israel, South Africa, Saudi Arabia, France, the US. It is not impossible that some or many of those making certain criticsisms of Israel are in fact motivated by anti-semitism, just as some unfair criticisms of black african states are motivated by anti-black racism.

And that is true. In fact it is highly likely that some criticisms of Israel are antisemitic, but that does not mean that all are, but yet I have seen, again and again, attempts to tar all critics with the racist brush.

quote: Any claim that someone is bigoted should be open to contest, of course, but it should not become unacceptable to call someone a bigot.

I never said that. What I am complaining about is the tendency to call all critics bigots in order to deflect criticism.

	24-01-2004 01:36									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark actually i remember some english getting quite upset about "the patriot"

But I never saw that, and I'm fairly attentive to the media. This current rash of complaining is all over the press.

	24-01-2004 01:37									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The fact that the ADL and the Rabbis are so violently condemning this movie as anti-semitic tells me that the next step is to condemn the New Testament of the Bible to be anti-semitic. Is this true or false?