28-01-2004 20:19									#31
	Support Apolyton

Here's another thing that seems "odd" about this game - my research rate seems faster than it should be.
Techs like Education, Printing Press, Banking, Astronomy - all at the rate where noone else knows them - are taking on average only about 7-8 turns, sometimes down to 5 turns if I MM an awful lot of scientists.

Is this because I have only two non-coastal cities and therefore extra commerce from every city but my capitol and a "land-grab" city?


Also, when I got contact with England, the embassy was cheap(only 30-40 gold, IIRC, so I went ahead and got one. Guess what she's building. In her capitol. Seriously, just guess.








A courthouse. She _just_ hit the middle ages, but has been building it for a while. Isn't that planning a bit too far ahead for her inevitable descent into communism? Surely she could be building something else, anything else?
I have a screenie of it and I can't think of any "good" reason for the AI to do that in that city at that point in time.


Mainly, though, my research seems much faster than "normal" games, as a branch-leader(The Ducth took Gunpowder while I was getting PrintingPress and Education, though Russia got Edu first.) Very odd.

	28-01-2004 23:16									#32
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by ducki Mainly, though, my research seems much faster than "normal" games, as a branch-leader(The Ducth took Gunpowder while I was getting PrintingPress and Education, though Russia got Edu first.) Very odd.

I've noticed the same thing in my game. I'm playing emperor, but my tech research has been through the roof. As a Republic, I've essentially controlled most of the tech research and trading throughout the middle ages, despite taking a slow-research detour to chivalry to build up almost 7000 gold and bunches of horsemen for upgrade. One other thing I've noticed in my game is that my three main tech competitors (Dutch, Sumerians, and Mayans) have all seemed to be concentrating on the upper tier techs (education, etc.). By going on the lower tier I've been able to trade for all upper tier techs along with most all the luxuries, etc. and maintain a moderately lengthy war against the Hittites without needing to use the lux slider too much, and I odn't even have so much as temples in most of my cities.

BTW, this will all come out in DAR 4 (including the reason the Hittite war was longer than it should have been), but since the observation was made in this thread I continued that.

	28-01-2004 23:34									#33
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by ducki Here's another thing that seems "odd" about this game - my research rate seems faster than it should be.

It's because the tech rate for this game (so probably the OCN too) is for a standard map. Not a big deal.

By the way, I agree about the power of the seafaring trait. Even with the AU Mod where ocean (and sea for curraghs) costs double, suicide ships are very much worth the small risk. I really hope they remove the reduced sinking chance for seafaring.

	29-01-2004 00:10									#34
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, I've been in Monarchy, not Republic, and still pulling off fast research. (I'll be switching to Demo as soon as I can but needed the unit support for my war.)

Even with a Standard size tech rate on a Large size map, my empire is not much, if any, actually, larger than on a Standard size map by this time, normally. And with an OCN set for smaller than the mapsize, shouldn't corruption be worse, slowing research, not speeding it? I'm just guessing here.

I hope they do not remove reduced sinking - I think we've seen enough variation in these DARs to see that a determined suicider will find a way, no matter what the cost, while the more laid-back explorer has his limits and will not continue to send ship after ship to hang with Davey Jones. Can it be abused? Sure. But that's the player's perogative, IMO.

	29-01-2004 00:16									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The current game is just like a 100x100 map for tech rate and rank corruption, but it has less distance corruption. Couple that with the fact that you get more commerce from all the coastal cities, and you have a fast tech pace.

Reduced sinking chance is already included in the increased movement. No need to make it even lower, IMO.

	29-01-2004 00:18									#36
	Tired of ads?

I'm not one for suicide ships as a matter of policy. In this game I saw the Mayan's border so went for it.

	29-01-2004 01:28									#37
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill I've noticed the same thing in my game. I'm playing emperor, but my tech research has been through the roof.

I guess I agree that the tech rate is high from a different perspective. We built markets and lately banks in all core cities and bought tech from civs just behind the tech leaders. Normally, this easily keeps you close to the lead on Emperor level and uses shields for units, while saving on maintance gold as well. This game the tech rate of the Dutch has been fast enough to keep a multiple tech lead despite us goosing the trailing civs with gold via tech buys.

	29-01-2004 01:36									#38
	Remove this text

By the way, I got into the thread to offer the observation that the AI really sucks at clearing swamps and jungle, and that it is killing them in this game.

	29-01-2004 02:12									#39
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by jshelr I guess I agree that the tech rate is high from a different perspective. We built markets and lately banks in all core cities and bought tech from civs just behind the tech leaders.

My high-speed tech rate has been going since before I had markets in more than 1 or 2 cities. In fact, I would almost say it happened exactly on the switch from Ancient to Middle Age - alexman, is there any chance that the costs for the Ancient Age are normal but the later ages are low?

quote: Normally, this easily keeps you close to the lead on Emperor level and uses shields for units, while saving on maintance gold as well.

I'm also on Emperor and while I'm over the allowed units number, I'm still able to pull a profit, run 90% science and 10% lux only using 1 or 2 Scientists all the time with rare MMing on 2 or 3 techs to get a 1-turn boost.

quote: This game the tech rate of the Dutch has been fast enough to keep a multiple tech lead despite us goosing the trailing civs with gold via tech buys.

My Dutch have also been fast, but I've been at parity with them since the Currency/Construction point The Russians have caught up with us, most likely due to Libraries and my trading techs down to them since they actually have money to pay.

It's really baffling to me, but there are enough variables that it's difficult for me to pin any one of them down.
-The AU Mod
-Archipelago(which I never play)
-Large map instead of my normal Standard
-Lots of small blocs of AI that I can trade between(well, until I sold Printing Press and contacts) with me and 2 other AIs researching strongly and everyone else stagnating.
-Emperor level - I'm still new to it and have not completed one yet (but have played a lot through the Middle Ages and this is just faster than the others)
-Cheap research buildings - I don't play scientific very often
-A Forbidden Palace actually built, but the race was "too" fast even before then, before I'd conquered Japan, before I even had enough cities to build one, before I had as many cities as I usually have on Standard Continent maps

I'm glad it's not just me that thinks it's faster than normal, and alexman said it's set to research like a Standard map - even though I still contend my research is faster than my normal standard maps.

Anyway, I'd better stop rambling so


Edit:

quote: By the way, I got into the thread to offer the observation that the AI really sucks at clearing swamps and jungle, and that it is killing them in this game.

Yes, yes they do. Of course, this could be more that they suck at building enough workers - is the "build often" flag for workers in this version of the mod? If so, maybe we can get a "build super-ultra-mega often until not needed then join to small towns" flag added to the editor.

	29-01-2004 04:11									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was disappointed in the turn to the industrial era.

As noted above, we were maybe four required techs behind when finishing banks sent our gpt way up. At that point, we were able to use lux gained via wars and gold to quickly buy our way through the end of the middle ages, all without buying anything from the leading Dutch.

Here's why I'm disappointed. On getting the free tech (medicine) I found the Dutch had no techs on the way to ToE. They are probaby wandering around in the nationalism tech swamp. They did have nationalism and are probaby researching commie and facism.

The lack of research direction by the AI takes the fun out of the game at this point. We can probably sit in republic and opportunistically buy tech until a sprint to scientific method becomes possible. I'll start building libraries around now to make sure the sprint is efficient, but the only trick is really to start the prebuild on time.

	29-01-2004 05:26									#41
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It's virtually impossible to keep the AI from researching Nationalism first. But I would be surprised if they go for Communism/Fascism after that. From my tests, they typically have a 7% chance of going for each of those optional techs after Nationalism, while they have a 50% chance to go for Steam Power. Perhaps the Dutch scientists slowed down in the Industrial Age. Are they at war?

Oh well, even if all AI beelined to Scientific Method, your prebuilds would probably get you the ToE, so don't worry about it so much!

Subliminal message to AU mod panel:
m o v e T h e o r y o f E v o l u t i o n t o M o d e r n A g e

	29-01-2004 06:02									#42
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

non-subliminal - swap ToE and Longevity

(Edit: I meant the non-modded Longevity.)

Last edited by ducki on 29-01-2004 at 21:25

	29-01-2004 10:27									#43
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I was playing a game today in which an AI built ToE! I was scared that I would lose Hoover, but they didn't even take Atomic Theory for their troubles (they probably took the road to combustion).

	29-01-2004 10:45									#44
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by alexman Subliminal message to AU mod panel: m o v e T h e o r y o f E v o l u t i o n t o M o d e r n A g e

* Dominae 's left eye twitches...

	29-01-2004 20:57									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The Dutch pulled a sneak attack on our NW island holdings in 920AD. We happened to be passing by with a flotilla of dromons to steal some coal from the rump city of the Hittites on a further island. So, we landed a defense force and made alliances with the UK, Russia, and the Maya. Not much is likely to happen but we’ll build a few home-front cavs for safety.

The Maya and Russians have opted for longevity which could cascade to ToE I suppose. But we should get to Scientific Method ahead of them. Can’t see the Dutch tech choices yet. Longevity should be more helpful to the AI than to the closely spaced cities of the human player.

Alexman's idea is interesting.

After Sanitation the boys and girls researched ironclads. It will be interesting to see if bombardment from the Dromon can wound an ironclad and send it home for repairs.

Last edited by jshelr on 29-01-2004 at 21:49

	30-01-2004 04:44									#46
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

So I have the Great Lighthouse and Dromons are 2 a penny. So there didn't seem to be anything better to do than explore, sending ships generally northward in the hope of discovering new lands. As others have commented, the AU Mod seems to have succeeded in widening the variety of AU research. The Dutch managed to get the Republic before ceremonial burial. Similarly the Egyptians and Russians had Monarchy before the wheel or Iron Working. This meant I was quickly able to trade for all the remaining ancient era techs.

I think I'm behind in developing my island though. I shouldn't have been able to trade 2 luxuries from the Mayans before connecting my source of incense. I went into anarchy upon trading for Monarchy in 1050BC and now have the option of switching to Republic when anarchy ends next turn in 925BC.

I'm 3 techs ahead of the nearest rival so now would seem like a good time to think about war. Some medieval infantry and pikemen should make attacking relatively easy. I'm not sure if the Statue of Zeus is going to be worth 300 shields at this tech pace but I don't want to let the Japanese have it for long (See, I was right!).

some well-structured notes:
contact Maya 11175BCBC, 1150BC BC contact England. Trade Map making for Maths with Eng. Peace with Sumeria for Maths for Lit+44 gold.
1050BC contact Russia+egypt. sell the Wheel+IW+Maths for Monarchy+90 gold. Eng _ Poly+lit for currency+20 gold. Monarchy to Maya for Silks+wines+construction+290 gold!
1000BC contact Dutch trade maths for CoL+60 gold. get Engineering. poly+lit+maths to Hittites for Phil+37g. Gift Dutch cb. buy Republic off them for currency+con+myst+hbr
950BC contact French sell hbr for 62 gold.

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	30-01-2004 20:33									#47
	DAR 3 - PART I Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Keep in mind that I was writing all of this as I went and I have not gone back to edit:

AU 501, Stock game, Emperor level

STATUS AS OF 825 BC (end of the last DAR)
8 Cities (with 34 pop points)
Units: 13 Workers, 9 Warriors, 5 Swordsmen, 5 Catapults, 1 Curragh
Techs: All ancient techs other than Republic, Construction, and Currency
Gov't: Despotism (Monarchy research completed this turn)
Contacts: Japan, Hittites, Sumeria, Egypt, Russia
Wonders: The Great Lighthouse
City Improvements: 4 Barracks, 4 Granaries, 4 Temples, 1 Library, 2 Harbors

Slider set to 20% Lux, 80% Research (42 bpt, -16 gpt)

NOTE: For this DAR, I am no longer going to report population changes and production completions unless they are important to the larger picture.

800 BC: 1 Dromon, 1 Temple, 1 Harbor, 1 Swordsman complete. BIS Ardent bombards barb camp and swordsman attacks, more swordsmen move into position. Contact with Maya. Sold Horseback Riding to the Maya for 134 Gold. All catapults moved to Smyrna so they can bombard any barb galleys I might lure near there with my Dromon (assuming the barb galleys don't kill the Dromon outright next turn).

775 BC: 1 Swordsman complete. 3 barb galleys move near my Dromon. Dromon bombards barbs and retreats to the Southeast (the barb galleys should follow along the coast so my catapults can bombard them). Swordsmen attack the barb camp again and one swordsmen is promoted to elite, more swordsmen move into the marshes.

750 BC: 1 Swordsman complete. 3 barb galleys chase the BIS Ardent. Catapults come out and bombard the barb galleys down to 1 pip each, followed by an attack by the BIS Ardent. BIS Ardent retreats AROUND the barb force back into Smyrna (gotta love seafaring trait + Great Lighthouse ). Swordsmen attack barb encampment again and defeat it, +25 gold for the treasury. HOLY SH***T!!!! I actually got a free tech from the goody hut!!!! "The Patzinal tribe has taught us Currency!" Tears of joy I tell you, tears of joy.

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	30-01-2004 20:36									#48
	DAR 3 - PART II Support Apolyton

730 BC: 2 Swordsmen complete. Japan completes the Mausolleum of Mausollos (thank the lord almighty that can't start their GA). The BIS Ardent runs out, kills a barb galley, and retreats back into port.

710 BC: 1 Harbor complete. Culture in Caesarea expands. The BIS Ardent takes out the last barb galley near Smyrna. Contact with England. Horseback Riding and Writing sold to England for 294 Gold.

690 BC: 1 Harbor complete, 2 Swordsmen complete.

670 BC: 1 Dromon complete, 1 SWordsman complete.

650 BC: Constantinople expands to Pop 8. 1 Dromon complete. Begin Anarchy.

630 BC: -

610 BC: Forest chop the previous turn completes a Dromon in Varna.

590 BC: Japan is building the Temple of Artemis. The English are building the Great Wall. Another island is found far off to the west... seems to be yet more jungle. I am finally exploring the Hittite island south of the Sumerian/Hittite island.

570 BC ALT: Anarchy ends, Monarchy begins. Hittites are building the Temple of Artemis.

550 BC: 1 Swordsman complete. 1 Worker joins Constantinople, expands Pop to 9.

530 BC: 2 Swordsmen complete, 1 Dromon complete. Russians are building the Great Wall. Slider to 20% Lux, 10% Research (8 bpt, -6 gpt).

510 BC: Construction reserach complete. Advance to Middle Age. Monotheism received for free. Research starts on Feudalism.

490 BC: 1 Dromon complete, 1 Swordsman complete, 1 Catapult complete. Contact with French. Writing sold to France for 108 Gold.

470 BC: 1 Swordsman complete, 1 Harbor complete. Egyptians start building the Great Library.

450 BC: -

430 BC: 1 Swordsman complete. Hittites building the Great Library.

410 BC: 1 Swordsman complete, 3 Dromon complete, 1 Cathedral complete. Wonder prebuild started.

390 BC: 1 Dromon complete. Japan is building the Statue of Zeus.

370 BC: 1 Swordsman complete. Japan is building the Great Library. Sold Philosophy to England for 49 Gold. Sold Monarchy to Russia for 199 Gold. Sold Currency to Sumeria for 118 Gold. Switched production over in several cities from Dromons to Settlers.

350 BC: 1 Swordsman complete, 1 Dromon complete. The BIS Ardent, BIS Audacious, BIS Dauntless, BIS Endeavor, BIS Glorious, BIS Illustrious, BIS Luminous, BIS Magnificent, BIS Majestic, and BIS Nemesis took a force of 14 Swordsmen and 6 Catapults Nicaea to the tile just SW of Osaka, Japan and then bombarded Osaka - WAR WITH JAPAN HAS BEGUN.

330 BC: 1 Settler complete. No Japanese units have attacked us over the turnbreak (this seems odd, but my units are in prohibitive stacks...). Japan is building the Great Library. 6 Catapults and 5 Dromons bombard Osaka. Elite Swordsman attacks a 1/3 Japanese Spearman AND PRODUCES A MILITARY GREAT LEADER!!!!!!!!!! (I feel like one of those Mexican soccer/football announcers about to scream "GOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAALLLLLL!!!!" Osaka taken and the Harbor survived! Man, this is INCREDIBLE luck so far... MGL shipped aboard the BIS Glorious back to Nicaea. We'll save him for when an Army would be more useful (I happen to know from experience that crusader armies can be a source of true terror, not to mention ancient cav armies ). My exploring curragh found a large area of whales with no land nearby this turn. Bombarded a Japanese Galley down to 1 pip, but retreated remaining Dromons ashore.

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	30-01-2004 20:39									#49
	DAR 3 - PART III Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

310 BC: Hittites demand Ivory and tell him to go packing. 1 Swordsman complete. Sumerians complete the Temple of Artemis. Hittites are building the Great Library. Egyptians are building the Great Library. Egyptians complete the Great Library. Russians are building the Great Wall and the Hanging Gardens. My prebuild changed to the Statue of Zeus (4 turns!) The BIS Majestic, BIS Audacious, BIS Magnificent, BIS Luminous, BIS Nemesis, and BIS Dauntless perform shore bombardment upon approaching Japanese units. Swordsmen attack wounded Japanese units, 2 are promoted to Elite. Bulk of forces advance to a forest tile 2 north of Kyoto. The BIS Intrepid, BIS Illustrious, BIS Endeavor, and BIS Ardent knock another Japanese galley down to 1 pip and retreat back into port. City of Chalcedon founded in the former marshes north of Smyrna

290 BC: 1 Swordsman complete, 1 Dromon complete, 1 Settler complete. Sumerians are building the Hanging Gardens and the Great Wall. Main stack moved to within 1 tile of Kyoto. Another Swordsman promoted to elite from killing a Japanese warrior (landed from a 1/3 galley). Secondary stack heads West against Edo. Exploratory curragh spots what must be the Dutch borders from the whale area. The BIS Audacious, BIS Dauntless, BIS Glorious, BIS Illustrious, BIS Intrepid, BIS Luminous, BIS Magnificent, BIS Majestic, and BIS Nemesis form into the First Imperial Navy and are sent around the north side of Japan to a point north of Edo... I pray the Japanese don't start my Golden Age while they are en route around the island to Kyoto.

270 BC: No Japanese forces attacked over the turn break. First Imperial Navy moves around the island to the West. Catapults north of Kyoto bombard a small stack of Japanese forces that moved behind me. BIS Sovereign loads a Settler and a Swordsman and embarks for the near Western island. Secondary swordsman force moves West to within 1 tile of Edo. Warrior on ivory tile killed by the Elite Imperial Guard (GL-proucing unit ) out of Osaka (and covered by another elite swordsman). Contact with the Dutch. Sold Polytheism and Construction to the Dutch for Republic.

STATUS AS OF 270 BC
10 Cities (with 48 pop points)
Units: 10 Workers, 9 Warriors, 24 Swordsmen, 6 Catapults, 12 Dromons, 1 Curragh
Techs: All ancient techs, only Middle Age tech is Monotheism (7 turns from Feudalism)
Gov't: Monarchy
Contacts: All
Wonders: The Great Lighthouse (Statue of Zeus in 2 turns)
City Improvements: 5 Barracks, 4 Granaries, 5 Temples, 1 Library, 7 Harbors, 1 Cathedral

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	30-01-2004 20:47									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Oh, since the stack view covered over the mini-map on that last screenshot:

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	30-01-2004 20:50									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX 330 - Found the mighty whale breeding grounds

heh - good name for it

	30-01-2004 20:58									#52
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Since it's been brought up, I'll just complain now I've finished the course, and in my countless elite victories, I did not get a single MGL the entire game. Not a one. And don't even get me started on the SGL's

I must have stolen all of your luck through some quirk of the Apolyton ISDG chatroom. Just got my first MGL during this DAR period and I even popped Currency from the home island goody hut.

	31-01-2004 00:29									#53
	Support Apolyton

quote: I must have stolen all of your luck through some quirk of the Apolyton ISDG chatroom. Just got my first MGL during this DAR period and I even popped Currency from the home island goody hut.

Don't make me add your name to the "curse" list along with Dom...

	31-01-2004 01:01									#54
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos quote: quote: Originally posted by ZargonX 330 - Found the mighty whale breeding grounds heh - good name for it

Um, could someone please let me know where this is? I've contacted everyone, but apparently haven't found it (yet).

Thanks,

Steven

	31-01-2004 01:11									#55
	Re: DAR 3 - PART I Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Slider set to 20% Lux, 80% Research (42 bpt, -16 gpt)

Arnelos (or anyone else), how do you determine bpt? I mean other than looking at the F1 screen and running a 10-key to add all the numbers--too involved for my tastes.

I guess I'm asking, "Is there a 'quick and dirty' (IOW lazy) way to determine bpt?"

Thanks,

Steven

	31-01-2004 02:43									#56
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The F1 screen shows it. You have to to add them for all the cities.
I wish they had a total count like the food box or shield box.

	31-01-2004 07:14									#57
	Re: Re: DAR 3 - PART I Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by steven8r Arnelos (or anyone else), how do you determine bpt? I mean other than looking at the F1 screen and running a 10-key to add all the numbers--too involved for my tastes. I guess I'm asking, "Is there a 'quick and dirty' (IOW lazy) way to determine bpt?" Thanks, Steven

I eventually gave up on it in this game (actually, pretty quick), but I've made a practice in some of the democracy games and PBEMs I'm in to literally count the number of beakers to a tech and attempt to plan ahead on number of beakers per turn at different research rates so I waste as few beakers/gold as possible (even adjusting the slider on the last turn of reserach will generally waste at least some amount of beakers/gold once your empire grows, since each 10% difference in slider amounts to a lot of commerce).

I really don't want to go to that much trouble for an SP game, though. I play SP games for fun. If I have to open a spreadsheet during an SP game to calculate things, it's no longer fun.

	31-01-2004 07:49									#58
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: to literally count the number of beakers to a tech and attempt to plan ahead on number of beakers per turn at different research rates so I waste as few beakers/gold as possible

I think I just figured out how much MM is too much for me.

	31-01-2004 08:56									#59
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by ducki I think I just figured out how much MM is too much for me.

I think a lot of us who MM that much in democracy games don't want to do it quite as much in SP games. In the democracy games you have time between each turn, so you can sit back and try to calculate the best possible option.

	31-01-2004 13:58									#60
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'll continue where I left off.


570BC: entering the middle ages, first, to my knowledge. Feudalism as freebie. With a religious civ i'd probably switch to Feud now and fight, but i don't want to lose too much time in anarchy. Maintenance is a killer already, 22gpt total, and the money i built up on trading techs is drained. I can research at 40% with a surplus now, which would be 35 turns on Monotheism/Engineering. Since i don't see a good alternative, and Republic is out of question, so be it. I think i'll go along the top branch first, so it will be Monotheism.

410BC: England demanded Construction, and declared war when i declined.

350BC: Mayans demand Currency, then declare war.

290BC: the marsh is almost drained, i'm going into anarchy.

230BC: Russia just declared war...

210BC: we are now a republic. Made peace with Japan for their 90g.

170BC: Egypt wants HBR and does not declare war when i reject! Also i just found the french: they gave me 176g (all they had) for - gasp - writing! They are at war with the Mayans, and won't survive much longer i think.

70BC: finally, contact with the Dutch.


At this point, Sumeria is the only other civ in the middle ages, on everyone else i have a comfortable tech lead (Sumeria lacks Feudalism and Monotheism). After reading the other DARs, i think i should have gone to war with Japan earlier. However, the empty islands west of me are still unsettled, i should have gone there earlier, too.
In the long run i will surely take the japanese island, the jungle to the west, and probably the Sumerian/Hittite island. Then i'll have to see if i want anything else.

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