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Rogan Josh
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So how do you define consciousness then? I would have said they are the same thing (free-will and consciousness) - even the act of observation implies free-will to 'understand' the observations.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:33
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PA: Because if you had everything being exactly the same, everything in the same position, then everything would do the same.
Imagine you have two identical worlds, like ours, right now. They are independant of each other. Starting from exactly the same point. If anything were random, there would beall but an infinitessimally small chance that they would do different things, that they would be different. That infinitessimally small chance is the chance that the random variable is exactly the same each time. If that random variable is exactly the same, they would both remain identical. However there is no random variable. Randomness does not exist. It is chaotic. The only difference that causes, is that, being that they are identical in every way, and they start from the same point, they will both remain identical. For them to be different, there would either need to be a difference at the start, or a difference in their evolution. The former we have stated there isn't, they start identical. The latter, since it is chaotic, and starting identically, cannot happen either. For their evolution to be different, there would need to be a random variable.
It does not matter if there are two or two billion. If they start from exactly the same point, they would all remain identical, and they would evolve identicaly. However many of them there were, they would all be the same, because they cannot evolve any differently. All the possibly worlds, starting from our starting point, would have the same future. It is not possible for two worlds, given exactly the same starting point, and independance, to have a different future from each other. Therefore, from our strating point, there is only one possible future. The one that will happen.
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Rogan Josh
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Consciousness, as I definie it, is the capacity to produce abstract thought. Free-will is a nonphysical influence on one's actions. I would not say they are the same thing as I see no reason why the capacity to produce abstract thought should be supernatural. |
But how can one 'reason' without free-will? 'Reason' implies a process over which one has control. If your reasoning is predetermined by physical law then it is not reasoning at all, but algorithm.
Would you say that a computer which is sophisticated enough to appear intelligent to a human observer has consciousness?
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Berz: Free Will is the idea that you can change your future. That your future is not decided, because there is still a chance you could choose one action, or a chance you could choose another. I agree that we can choose our own choice. I agree that we are free from others who want to make choices for us (to some extent). However while we can choose, what we will choose is already known. We cannot change the future, since our actions will be what our actions will be. That is why I don't believe in parallel/alternate universes, because there is only one way things can happen, the way that they will do. The future is as solid as the past. Admittedly we cannot know what it is, but it is a static object, in that it doesn't change. |
No, free will is NOT that. Free will is the power to make your own decisions, without someone else making them for you.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:33
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BeBro: Compatabalism
Free will and determinism are not mutually exclusive. People can believe in free will and determinism.
We are free to make decisions. We can choose what we want. However, what we will choose is already decided. Imagine you are put in a situation, in a time loop. Say you're deciding what to have for breakfast. You go over this situation multiple times, but you never know you are doing it again. You will always do exactly the same thing. You will always choose to eat the same thing, because each time, you are exactly the same person. Given exactly the same starting point, you will do exactly the same action. You are free to choose whatever option you wish, but you, being you, in exactly the same point in space and time, will always choose that option. In a different place in time, you may choose differently, but given exactly the same situation (I can't stress that enough, it doesn't mean the same experiment twice, it means in that individual, unrepeatable point in space and time) you will choose the same option.
You are free to choose, but that freedom is an illusion.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue
Have you read much about the quantum world? |
Some. I wouldn't class myself as an expert, but I ave read some articles on it. Moreover, I would consider my dad partly an expert on it (his PhD was not in quantum physics, but he had a strong research interest in it), and I have discussed ideas on chaotic and complex systems with him.
With regards to the observer effect. It is just another way of putting the idea that if a tree falls in the woods, and no-one hears it, did it make a sound. I think a phenomenon can occur without being observed. If something needs to be observed before it can manifest itself in the physical world, then how can it? How can it be observed when it is not physical, so that it can be made physical? I never got the point of the observer effect. I don't believe there is a pre-existing conciousness, there is no evidence for that, nor does it seem to make sense, how something can be concious without a brain.
What I do know is that quantum experiments are chaotic. And that means that if nothing changes at all, in exactly the same position in space/time, the same thing will happen. That can obviously never happen in this universe, since time travel is impossible. However since there is no random variable, just chaotic systems that appear random, nothing different can happen.
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Consciousness, as I definie it, is the capacity to produce abstract thought. Free-will is a nonphysical influence on one's actions. I would not say they are the same thing as I see no reason why the capacity to produce abstract thought should be supernatural. |
Neurobiologically, consciousness is the communication between the prefrontal cortex and the sensory cortex of the human brain. The prefrontal cortex is the newest part of the brain (evolutionarily speaking) and as far as we know is only present (at least at such a large size, maybe a small one in some other high primate) in humans.
Why bother to philosophize or get into quantum physics when the biology of the brain itself answers your question. Its all connections of cells that dictate our behavior, and we certainly do have free will, which is completely random, or as random as it could possibly be within our programming.
Think about it, for the vast vast majority of our evolution we were scavengers, and 4 million years ago we became hunter-gatherers with Australopithecus and we did that from then until only 11,000 years ago when the last cold period ended and the last of the big game died. We're designed to hunt and gather and free will is just the difference between us all reaching for the same fruit on the tree or us all focusing on something different and random.
There is nothing dictating our future, either actively or passively, except neurons and cells in each of our own heads.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Because they're not identical. There are minutely differences. Even differences as small as a change in the magnetic field, or the different position of the sun are enough. For it to be exactly the same, it would need to be in exactly the same place, at exactly the same point in time. That is impossible, hence the different result.
There is not such thing as an identical quantum experiment, because it is chaotic. Hence the differences, from any minute difference (such as those mentioned above) could produce huge differences in outcome. |
However, according to quantum theory (which actually IS supported by A LOT of evidence, despite your objections) , the universe is not deterministic, but probabilistic.
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