02-02-2004 12:23									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Zero WRONG.

Sure it is.

Look, you can ***** and moan all you want, but the truth is that in almost every realtime game, speed is a core issue.

You said it yourself... at HIGH levels of play, everyone is about equally fast and the build orders are pretty much pre-determined... you look at your start, your team of choice, and the situation, and you decide which strat you're gonna go with and go for it.

If that takes you more than 2 minutes to do, you lose.

Furthermore, most games (WC3 is an unusual example because, in general, far fewer units are used than in, say, WC2 or SC/BW or similar games... AoE2, the C&C games) do, in fact, end up with veteran players outproducing the n00bs 5:1 or more. The gap quickly closes when the n00bs realize how slowly they're moving, but that's basically the difference between a complete n00b and an intermediate.

At high levels of the game... no one cares. Honestly, at high levels of the game, it's assumed that everyone already has the keybinds reconfigured and/or memorized, that everyone knows the maps and build orders, and that everyone has quick reflexes and dextrous fingers. THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT SPEED ISN'T IMPORTANT. IN FACT, IT MEANS THE OPPOSITE: TO EVEN GET TO THIS LEVEL, YOU *HAVE* TO BE FAST.

You can pretend that I'm just an idiot who has never played an RTS... but I have, and I do recall the hours spent honing my Age of Kings fast-castling strats or perfecting the early Hydralisk rush (I imagine I'd suck at both games now if I tried... you forget the keybinds and the build orders and the timing, and you're ****ing DONE). I'm not even gonna get into Dragoon-dancing.

As for "button mashers"... I've never heard anyone refer to fighters as such. Why? Because fighters are niche games. No one gives a **** about them unless they're a devotee of the genre. That said, you ever play Virtua Fighter 4? Tell me that speed and memorized timing aren't the most important aspects of that game (which is currently being circle-jerked as one of the "best fighting games ever"), and you can have your point.

-SporkPimp
This topic was dead from the first post anyway, especially since the OP was asking for information that's been posted here a million times.

	02-02-2004 14:15									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Zero No it is not a clickfest by definition. What idiotic RTS players click buttons like crazy? How the hell am I supposed to take "clickfest" any other than "there is no skill in RTS cause time is a factor and all you have to do is build things faster"? I doubt you meant it any other way.

I meant exactly what I said. I don't negate that RTS games require skills. One of them being to press the right button as fast as possible. Meet the right decisions, meet them fast and don't miss your click by two pixels, that's RTS.

quote: Yeah, Civ is ****ing Clickfest too if you think about it. Think about all the mouse click you need to do to move units queue builds etc

I can take my time if I need it. And I can use my keyboard to move units.

quote: Maybe you didnt mean to insinuate that RTS is some brainless game, maybe not. But the way ur still trying to defend yourself by insisting your original statement is somehow justified DOES make me mad for real now.

I don't think it's a brainless game. Still to meet the right decision is at least as important as to meet it fast. "Real Time Strategy" translates as "clickfest with strategic depth". There. Feel better?

	02-02-2004 17:39									#33
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The difference is that to succeed in a TBS you need brains, in a RTS you need brains and speed.

To me it is mostly a matter of preference(I prefer TBS) but also a matter of convenience, I simply don't have the time needed to be a skilled RTS player(I believe that speed is gained by practise, lots of practise)

Even more OT. I saw this documentary about a norwegian kid(in his teens) who were so good at playing some RTS game(warcraft?) that he won a world-championship held in south-Korea, he even got an offer to be a professional game-player! Anyway, seeing him in action was bloody impressive, and I have to admit that a civ-documentary wouldn't been even half as good TV.