11-02-2004 08:19									#481
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker People don't have to be "molded" - they should be taught to think for themselves (methinks this is time to google some Nietzsche quotes )

Skywalker don't bother. Kid has a history of supporting whatever it takes including totalitarianism to support the communistic utopian dream.

The ability to think for oneself is irrelevent in this borg like society.

	11-02-2004 20:43									#482
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I find it hopeful that there are commies like Spiffor who are willing to adapt their doctrine in ways that will avoid totalitarianism.

	11-02-2004 20:58									#483
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I find it hopeful that there are commies like Spiffor who are willing to adapt their doctrine in ways that will avoid totalitarianism.

Well, since my mother lived the 15 first years of her life in a Stalinist regime, it sure had an impact on me. My position wrt communism is similar to my position wrt abortion: I believe in creating a more humane society, and I'll always consider the actual living conditions to be more important than doctrine.

	12-02-2004 00:32									#484
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It's irrelevent what Spiffor actually believes, Ned, as long as you continue to hew to a contorted cartoonish version of Marxism and communism.

	12-02-2004 00:38									#485
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Cartoonish view of communism verses Goth view of Capitalism.

I prefer cartoons.

Long live Bugs Bunny.

	12-02-2004 00:54									#486
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Bugs was an anarchist.

	12-02-2004 01:06									#487
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's irrelevent what Spiffor actually believes, Ned, as long as you continue to hew to a contorted cartoonish version of Marxism and communism.

I admit that I have some fun criticizing you guys. I know your hearts are in the right place. I am just critical of your methods.

	12-02-2004 01:08									#488
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Aw shucks.

	12-02-2004 01:14									#489
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I admit that I have some fun criticizing you guys. I know your hearts are in the right place. I am just critical of your methods.

Their hearts are in the right place its the second head that throws me.

	12-02-2004 20:57									#490
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker People don't have to be "molded" - they should be taught to think for themselves (methinks this is time to google some Nietzsche quotes )

Sure they need to think for themselves, but they need to learn that it benefits everyone more when they act in the interest of society instead of just in their own self-interest. Our society now molds us into self-interested individuals only (well for the most part).

	13-02-2004 02:03									#491
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quote: Sure they need to think for themselves, but they need to learn that it benefits everyone more when they act in the interest of society instead of just in their own self-interest. Our society now molds us into self-interested individuals only (well for the most part).

and I guess anyone who refuses to be "molded" and act only in the "best interests of society" should be sent to the gulag, da?

It may be true that society is more important than an individual, but it is not more important than the individual. Unless of course you want to create a homogenous, stagnant, unthinking society.

	13-02-2004 02:04									#492
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: Sure they need to think for themselves, but they need to learn that it benefits everyone more when they act in the interest of society instead of just in their own self-interest. Our society now molds us into self-interested individuals only (well for the most part). and I guess anyone who refuses to be "molded" and act only in the "best interests of society" should be sent to the gulag, da?

That's a bit of a jump.

	13-02-2004 02:17									#493
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: Sure they need to think for themselves, but they need to learn that it benefits everyone more when they act in the interest of society instead of just in their own self-interest. Our society now molds us into self-interested individuals only (well for the most part). and I guess anyone who refuses to be "molded" and act only in the "best interests of society" should be sent to the gulag, da?

No gulag, but if they break the law, and are given due process of law, there should be consequences. That won't change. One goal of the societies institutions should be to get citizens to obey the law and act in a way that is beneficial to society.

quote: Originally posted by skywalker It may be true that society is more important than an individual, but it is not more important than the individual.

I didn't say it was. Individuals shouldn't be allowed to act in a way that detrimental to society. The law says individuals can't sh1t where ever they like, because individuals don't want sh1t everywhere. Individuals should act in a way that is best for all the individuals, not just themselves, or you don't have a civilized society at all.

	13-02-2004 02:27									#494
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's a bit of a jump.

No, it's not. Anybody who thinks people should be "molded" into the state's concept of a "model person" is totalitarian in the extreme - it is virtually a declaration that they have no freedom of thought.

	13-02-2004 02:31									#495
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No gulag, but if they break the law, and are given due process of law, there should be consequences. That won't change. One goal of the societies institutions should be to get citizens to obey the law and act in a way that is beneficial to society.

That has nothing to do with molding people - a person can hold whatever values they want, so long as they obey the law. Concordance with the law has nothing to do with an individuals freedom to believe what he or she chooses.

quote: I didn't say it was. Individuals shouldn't be allowed to act in a way that detrimental to society. The law says individuals can't sh1t where ever they like, because individuals don't want sh1t everywhere. Individuals should act in a way that is best for all the individuals, not just themselves, or you don't have a civilized society at all.

(emphasis mine)

So the "benefit of society" supersedes individual liberties? If it would be "detrimental" to society for people to protest a war, they shouldn't be allowed to do it? If it would be "detrimental" to society for citizens to believe in a higher being, they shouldn't be allowed to do it?

	13-02-2004 02:40									#496
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No gulag, but if they break the law, and are given due process of law, there should be consequences. That won't change. One goal of the societies institutions should be to get citizens to obey the law and act in a way that is beneficial to society. That has nothing to do with molding people - a person can hold whatever values they want, so long as they obey the law. Concordance with the law has nothing to do with an individuals freedom to believe what he or she chooses.

Our beliefs are very much determined by the institutions or our society. That has nothing to do with how free we are.

quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: I didn't say it was. Individuals shouldn't be allowed to act in a way that detrimental to society. The law says individuals can't sh1t where ever they like, because individuals don't want sh1t everywhere. Individuals should act in a way that is best for all the individuals, not just themselves, or you don't have a civilized society at all. (emphasis mine) So the "benefit of society" supersedes individual liberties? If it would be "detrimental" to society for people to protest a war, they shouldn't be allowed to do it? If it would be "detrimental" to society for citizens to believe in a higher being, they shouldn't be allowed to do it?

I didn't say protesting war was detrimental to society. Individuals should have all the liberties which are beneficial to society and which make up a just society.

	13-02-2004 02:44									#497
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What if someone exercises their liberties in a way you view "detrimental" - say, voting against a politician whose policies you think are "right"? Wouldn't voting against him be "detrimental" to society?

	13-02-2004 02:45									#498
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker No, it's not. Anybody who thinks people should be "molded" into the state's concept of a "model person" is totalitarian in the extreme - it is virtually a declaration that they have no freedom of thought.

Every society molds its people, even a shmooist one.

	13-02-2004 02:48									#499
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But society doesn't "mold" them in the way he's proposing - he's arguing to have the schools indocrtrinate the students into all one mindset. You know what that sounds like? Blind patriotism.

	13-02-2004 02:53									#500
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker But society doesn't "mold" them in the way he's proposing - he's arguing to have the schools indocrtrinate the students into all one mindset. You know what that sounds like? Blind patriotism.

It sounds like school.

	13-02-2004 02:54									#501
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Whoo-hoo! Post 500! Until next time...

See Ya!

	13-02-2004 02:55									#502
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Good riddance.

	13-02-2004 03:23									#503
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Will Skywalker open a new one? I don't know if I want to take part

(actually, I know I want to )

	13-02-2004 03:34									#504
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I want to get back to the dialogue I had going with you... that's a good debate.

	13-02-2004 03:43									#505
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Yeah, but I think we've exhausted it quite a bit. I think our cases are pretty clear, only that we could make shmooism and spifforism more detailed.

	13-02-2004 03:45									#506
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Yeah, but where we left off, I was working on asking how you would prevent corporations and such in spifforism, and why

	13-02-2004 11:27									#507
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Is capitalism the new communism?