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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:33
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quote:
Traditional marriage included polygamy, and in a few places polyandry.
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So? Do any of the places that allow polygamy allow also for homosexual marriage?
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this evolution of the term can continue
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Then it isn't traditional to evolve the term. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
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The government could say "marriage is a contract to join bloodlines and any joining that can not lead to children being created does not count as marriage".
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So this is a definition of marriage, you would support, GePap?
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The state is less able to justify saying "marriage is between two people who love each other- but only of different sexes".
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Does the state, in fact, say such a thing? I don't see love anywhere in the requirements, just one man and one woman.
Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 09-02-2004 at 22:08
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:33
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Mercator:
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Islamic lands place severe restrictions on women, spawn rapacious rulers, and lack a separation between religion and state.
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quote:
The sooner we realize the absence of ideas and encourage, freedom of thought, creativity, and intellectual self-determination, the sooner will we recover some semblance of our past glory
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You touch on an interesting point. It came up in my RCIA class. There is a balance between tradition, and traditionalism. There are different ways, to express faith, but the essential doctrine will remain the same.
I agree that there should be a seperation between church and state. It would be shocking to hear a Mennonite argue otherwise, given that they have been traditionally outcasts. In fact, they tend to shun politics because it is seen as becoming too involved with the world. What is another matter, is for a Catholic to say the same thing. Catholics are changing their conception of the role of faith, and have been doing so for the past 300 years. They are starting to realise that keeping the state out of religion, assists the religion, as it does the state.
Now, I want to be clear as to what this seperation entails. I'm a little cautious when considering Muslim writers on this concept, but it does not mean that faith should not interact with the state, but rather there is no established religion, and de facto religious freedom.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:33
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quote:
laws that prevent people from killing each other are not the same as dictating how a person expresses love or who they want to love.
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And the government does not do the latter. They can have a ceremony, slip a ring on their finger, call it a marriage, but it will not be recognised by the state as such.
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you still continue to use the no children argument for why gays shouldn't be allowed to get married, ignoring the fact that that same right is given to heterosexual couples who can't or won't have children.
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In giving the right to some, others also have the right. Consider this. Suppose we did say that one had to express an intention to have children in order to get married. What will happen? Everyone who gets married will 'express the intention.'
In short, with marriage as it stands, it is impossible to enforce such a restriction. However, it is possible to limit marriage to those relationships likely to produce children, and this we find between a man and a woman, and do not find between two men or two women.
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:33
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editted
Last edited by MrFun on 09-02-2004 at 23:06
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:33
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editted
Last edited by MrFun on 09-02-2004 at 23:08
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Mercator
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Sorekara no Nanimo
Jan 1970
time: 06:33
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It wasn't particularly separation of religion and state I was hinting at, even though that is a part of it, but rather the origins and evolution of religion. Islam in my examples, but I think it applies equally to Christianity.
You second quote is very applicable, and I think it contrasts sharply with what you say:
quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
There are different ways, to express faith, but the essential doctrine will remain the same. |
You may experience it as such, but I think Christianity suffers from the same problem Islam does. The biggest difference is that most Christian states are secular, while most Islamic states aren't.
Some of the most basic ideas of a religion will inevitably remain the same, but for the most part it should (and has) adapt to the ever-changing society it is a part of.
quote:
Source: http://www.ijtihad.org/ideas.htm
These streams of contingent ideas continued to flow and enrich not only the Islamic World but also the entire human civilization. Every new stream of ideas added a newer, deeper and richer dimension to the Islamic world. In its time it manifested the zenith of human achievements in both corporeal as well as spiritual sense. This great epoch in human history was essentially the outcome of the human mind processing the pure idea of Islam.
Today, the Islamic Ummah is in disarray. It has not only lost its past glory, but has also lost the capacity to comprehend the virtues and the causes of its past glory. |
From their original inspiring creative melting pot of ideas Judaism/Christianity/Islam, perhaps inevitably all religions (ideologies/philosophies), turn into a stagnant quagmire of dogmas.
But instead of adapting to new situations, creating, religion seems to hark back to the past and bring up a Bible-quote, so to speak.
To condense it down to one sentence: I don't understand how rigidly sticking to a definition of marriage or rejecting homosexuality, whatever, is in line with ancient traditions of religion such as freedom of though, creativity and self-determination.
In our modern, Western, society homosexuality has taken its place and it is finally being accepted. How then can you defend attacking it?
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09-02-2004 21:09
and let folks pursue their own happiness... i mean that is in the constitution isn't it.
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